Addiction, Recovery & Building a Purpose-Driven Life

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[Music] Jane, hello. Welcome to Beyond the 
Boardroom. Thank you for having me. I'm super

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excited to have you on. You are quite something. 
Shall I list Shall I list all these uh accolades?

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Right. You're the founder of Red Wolf Technologies 
Limited. You are the co-founder and CEO of Novella

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Healthcare. You are also the co-chair for apps 
goes I hope I'm saying that correctly clinical and

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healthcare sector. You've also been a director of 
several companies. You are a motivational speaker.

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You're also a mom and you're also from what I've 
seen so far a very lovely person. Does that sum

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up the uh do you I guess so. It's a it Yeah. Yeah. 
These are, you know, these are pretty significant

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achievements. It's pretty cool, you know, to have 
all of that and be like, look, I've, you know,

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I'm the founder of these businesses. I've done 
this. I've done that. You're clearly pretty

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entrepreneurial. Let's let's be, you know, let's 
be honest. Yeah. I think I just get excited about

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things. You like you like business. You're doing 
stuff. You're making the effort. And I would say

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you've achieved a decent amount of uh success. 
However, your journey to get to this point

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has been pretty tough to say the least and it 
included drug abuse and alcohol abuse and mental

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health struggles. It's not been easy for you. I'm 
thrilled to have you on. You're very brave to come

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on um and share this journey with us. Um and I 
suppose first question what I want to know is why

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did you feel it's important to share your journey 
with us? I have tried to share um as much as I'm

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comfortable with I suppose for a little while now. 
I was asked to speak in a school to begin with

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um going back seven or eight years by a friend who 
knew my story and asked to speak and at the time I

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I said no instantly and thought that that was a 
silly idea. Yeah. And and and who would want to

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listen to my story? Lots of people have tough 
stories and tough backgrounds and and and just

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didn't see myself as as that person really. But 
she talked me into it and I'm glad she did. Uh,

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and it made me realize how much young people these 
days and and all people, but particularly young

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people are struggling with with life and mental 
health battles and could see that it had helped

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maybe just one or two people in that room and that 
made it worth getting a little bit uncomfortable

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for and doing it again and again. Yeah, I mean 
this podcast, you know, we cover I mean there's

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lots of things we cover, but I suppose the central 
theme to what encapsulates what this podcast is

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about. It's like a it's an inner confidence you 
know to go for stuff in business but also in your

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personal life you know to overcome challenges 
to achieve things to I suppose fight your inner

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demons to whatever it is fight the laziness 
or fight the temptations whatever it may be

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it's it's kind of like working through that to be 
confident enough to take charge of your life and

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go forward so I feel you're very well placed to be 
on this podcast and lots of people as you say are

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struggling with these issues and I just want to 
have a conversation with you about it. I feel like

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your story is crazy like it's mad like it's Yeah, 
it's colorful. It's a very colorful story. Yeah,

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it's good you're wearing red. Enjoy the ride. 
Yeah. So, first of all, you grew up in Did you

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grow up in Glasgow? No, I grew up in Bolton. You 
grew up in Bolton? cuz obviously you don't have a

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no Scotty. So what's the Glasgow connection? Uh I 
went to university in Glasgow. I wanted to study

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forensics and that was the best place. Forensics. 
Yes. I always do everything to uh fairly Olympic

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st standards. So I I searched for where the best 
place was to do it and went to Glasgow. That's

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that's okay. Forensics is uh I haven't heard that 
on the podcast something. And then you moved to

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uh Yeah. When I finished at Glasgow I moved back 
down. I moved home to Bolton and lasted maybe

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eight weeks. I think once you've come away 
from living at home, it's hard to go back,

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isn't it? Uh and quickly moved to uh a flat in 
Manchester with with friends. So what led you

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to move to Manchester? Like what was like what 
was the idea of Manchester? Uh it just happened

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if I'm honest. There was nothing too purposeful 
at that point. I took a break from forensics. I'd

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been studying. Um, I'd had a bit of a a tough time 
at at university with uh with a couple of things

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that happened and I just decided to get a job. I 
got a job on 12 grand in a call center at BER. Um,

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and it just was to kind of fill a gap to begin 
with while I worked out what I did and then

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things just went from there. What was it at uni 
that was tough? What was it? I think looking back

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that I already struggled with mental health. I 
think depression had kicked in by the time I was

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a teenager really. Um and and struggled through 
school, got to university and and struggled more.

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And then um one of my close friends from home 
died in a car accident um and that that was

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really tough to deal with at that age. You know, 
we were 20 and going on nights out and all that

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really affected you. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. 
you already felt sort of depressed and sad. Um,

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was there any reason that you were feeling like 
this? Did you know what was causing the sadness

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or did you No, I didn't at the time. I mean, 
looking back, I think um just not fitting in and

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not feeling a part of the world. You know, I'm in 
a civil partnership. I'm gay now happily married

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to a woman. But to grow up in the 80s and 90s and 
and to be a gay person walking in this world was

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not an easy one. It wasn't something people spoke 
about and and you know is is still more difficult

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these days. So you didn't talk about it at that? 
No, I wouldn't even to myself. I still tried to

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date boys and tried to be somebody that I wasn't 
which is incredibly uncomfortable and and you know

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it's damaging to mental health. It takes its toll 
after a time that is uncomfortable because you're

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walking around. Yeah. You're you're not being true 
to yourself and it's going to affect every single

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response to everything that you encounter. you 
know, your internal message is that you're not

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you're not good enough, you don't fit in, you you 
know, you there's something wrong with you, you

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know, all those things. And and you know, insults 
are still used on the playground around being gay.

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It's still used as an insult particularly amongst 
lads. And you know, it's it's at school. Did

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you get bullied in in that way? But you but you 
concealed it. So you Yeah. Not not for being gay,

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but I was a tomboy. You know, all I wanted to 
do was play football. Girls weren't allowed to

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play football. Yeah, I you know I just didn't 
certainly didn't fit into the in crowd if you

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know there is still football. I know. Yeah. I 
mean now I really enjoy it and it's and it's

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great and it's you know for some of my closest 
friends have come from football and that's right

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you know and that's incredible but at the time 
I was told I wasn't allowed to play you know

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that was wrong you know there was so many things 
that told you subtly that that it was wrong. It

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wasn't that anybody ever told me, you know, you 
can't be gay cuz no, I didn't tell anybody that

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I was. I didn't tell myself I was. Not your not 
your parents. You didn't have any. No, we never

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had a conversation. No friends to disclose that. 
You didn't want it. I don't think in those days

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people did anyway. I I just don't think they did. 
I think it it is different now and it's better,

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but um we're still not there. you know, the only 
people that think it's probably okay to be gay.

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And there's nothing different these days than 
there was is is straight people. There's still

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very much Yeah. you know, an underlying tone 
um in society that it's still not quite there.

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So, you've gone to Manchester and then what was 
it about the scene sort of the clubs, the social

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circles, the bars that kind of drew you into that 
sort of world? Uh, I don't know really. I mean,

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I enjoyed going out. I think most people did at 
that age. And I'd gone from not fitting in at

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school and not really having friends and and being 
quite a loner to all of a sudden finding people

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that I enjoyed spending time with and um and 
and you know we had a good time and I lived with

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um a girl who you know we were incredibly close 
very very quickly and and shared a bond and

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um yeah I just enjoy enjoyed it to an extent 
but I still for that first year or two of being

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in Manchester was trying to date boys and be 
somebody that I wasn't. Okay. So, you've got

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a friend now. You're living together. Were you 
living together at the time? And you're going out

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and you're partying and you're sort of enjoying 
it, sort of getting into that whole thing.

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That's someone on the podcast last week that was 
saying that it's just something you fall into,

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isn't it? It's a whole club scene and everyone's 
going out and everyone's It is whatever partying

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and stuff. Yeah, it it it sounds bizarre now 
looking back, but we she she was a model and

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um you know moved in circles where it meant we 
were going to Man United football dues and um

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you know yeah you know big celebrities that people 
knew and we were you know we would always get into

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any of those clubs because of who she knew and 
her modeling and and things like that and living

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a life that most people would have thought was 
just wonderful you know. Yeah. who wouldn't want

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to live that life at that age that you know it was 
it was great to an extent but I think behind the

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scenes I I still was was struggling. Yeah. So you 
still felt something inside you not quite right

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but to the outside world you're partying you're 
actually you know you're enjoying this lifestyle

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because that's sort of what's going on that's the 
theme of the yeah I had some really good friends

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from uh six form college and and Bolton and um I 
kind of lost touch with them because I was trying

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to pretend to myself and everybody else that I was 
having this great time and they genuinely thought

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that I was doing and you know a couple of years 
later when it all came tumbling down and one of

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the first things I needed to do was to reach out 
to people that I knew would just be there. Yeah.

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They just couldn't believe that I'd gone through 
all of this for a few years without knowing.

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They just thought I was having this great time. 
Remember, there was no social media then. Yeah.

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You know, we're talking 2001 to 2005ish. And um 
the odd time I spoke to them, which was very rare,

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they they just thought I was having this great 
time. Yeah. So you sort of drifted away from them

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a little bit and you're drifting into this world 
gap between a lot of people. And in this world

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you've got these big celebrity parties that you're 
going to it's really fun. It's it's madness. It's

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all those shiny lovely things and that includes 
drugs and alcohol, I'm sure. Yeah. So when did

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you first try drugs? Uh probably a few months 
into that scene. was just readily available as

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as I'm sure it is these days still. I I don't know 
a long way away from it now, but I think it was it

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was so available. Yeah. Um now obviously I just 
think about my kids and terrified now. Yeah. I

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wish you didn't know. You're a great Yeah. You're 
a great mom cuz you're going to be like, "Yeah,

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we'll spot it quite easily." Yeah. You're gonna 
know. Um Yeah. And it was just readily available.

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And I think because you say that these nights 
were great fun, but actually I was stood in

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those rooms with I think you know, call it what 
you want, imposter syndrome or whatever else we

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call all these feelings. I didn't feel like I fit 
in in any way. You know, I wasn't a celebrity. I

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didn't feel like I looked the part. I didn't, 
you know, I I I was gay and nobody knew it. I

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was there pretending, you know, flirting with men, 
which is really uncomfortable for me, you know,

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and and so Did I have fun? I don't know. I played 
a part well. That must be really difficult because

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you're flirting with, you know, these guys and you 
don't you're not fancing them at all. It must be

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just the difficult, you know, thing. I think you 
train to to you're trained to ignore that feeling

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inside of butterflies and that little feeling 
in your tummy when you're attracted to somebody.

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That's lovely. And everybody has a right to have 
that feeling. And I didn't because for all those

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years when everybody else was having all those 
exciting feelings and um you know and enjoying

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those first dates and everything, I was pushing 
all of that down thinking or trying to convince

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myself it was something else and going on dates 
with guys and thinking I must be attracted to

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this guy cuz he's attractive, right? You know, or 
I must be attracted to this guy cuz all the other

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girls are so he's attractive so therefore I must 
date him. You can't you can't you can't pretend,

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you know, to think I was 22 before that's tough. I 
admitted first having feelings for a girl. Um, you

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know, that that's a So, which girl was that? Long 
time. Well, I'm I'm going to protect her privacy

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here cuz she No, no, don't say her name. But which 
was it? The girl that you were staying with? Yes.

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Yeah. Yeah. And And do you know what? You couldn't 
ask for a better response. She just kind of went,

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"Oh, everybody falls in love with me. Why don't 
we just go out and see what other girls you're

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attracted to? Yeah, chill. And I thought my world 
would end, you know. I thought this was this was

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it, you know, my world would end. And um she got 
me to go and sit down with my mom and go back to

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Bolton and chat with friends and uh you know, she 
was incredible. How was that for you going going

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to your mom and your friends? Hard and yet lovely 
as well because you know those friends I've got

0:14:11.200,0:14:17.440
from Bolton are proper proper friends. You know, I 
grew grew up with them to an extent. Most of them

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I met at six form. As I say, school school wasn't 
a great time. But at six form, I made some friends

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that are just down to earth people. They're just 
authentic, genuinely good people. And um they were

0:14:29.440,0:14:33.760
just upset that I'd not been able to talk to them 
or that I thought they would see me any other way.

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And and I didn't necessarily I don't think it was 
as much about them as it was about me accepting

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things. Yeah, that's right. You have to accept 
yourself. But did they suspect anything like that?

0:14:42.960,0:14:47.040
they think like come on, you know. Oh yeah. I 
don't think they were surprised. I just don't

0:14:47.040,0:14:52.400
think they'd overthought about it either because 
it's not a big deal to anybody else. Yeah. You

0:14:52.400,0:14:56.640
know, and it and it isn't. Yeah. Um but what 
they you know what a lot of people don't see

0:14:56.640,0:15:02.960
is if I walk down the street and hold hands with 
my partner, people take a second look. Sometimes

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they're not being nasty. They're not being 
difficult or they're not but yeah, you know,

0:15:07.760,0:15:12.480
it's different. So they take a second look. I 
don't want that second look. I get embarrassed or

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I get uncomfortable or I just want to go through 
life. Yeah. Without the second look. Yeah. Even

0:15:19.760,0:15:26.240
now. Even now. Less so maybe than 20 years 
ago, but still. Well, hopefully coming on this

0:15:26.240,0:15:31.040
podcast will help the second look stop. It's rude. 
Yeah. I don't People aren't meaning to be rude,

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are they? I think we all second, you know, it's 
there. In some cultures, they just stare. I mean,

0:15:37.200,0:15:43.280
I'm Polish, but in Poland, Polish people love to 
stare. like you sit, you know, in an airport and

0:15:43.280,0:15:48.160
it and you know, we're still in a world where it's 
illegal to be gay in some countries. You know,

0:15:48.160,0:15:52.320
when me and my we have two children together, two 
beautiful children. We're very blessed. we've had

0:15:52.320,0:15:58.080
IVF and um then we and we have this lovely 
family and we're the only gay family in our

0:15:58.080,0:16:05.360
school in our primary school of you know however 
many hundreds of children and we know that if we

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travel I am conscious of where we travel because 
I don't want my children to be intimidated or to

0:16:11.360,0:16:16.480
realize that actually they're still young you know 
they're nine and six and that's young to know that

0:16:16.480,0:16:22.560
there's some hatred out there and there's some oh 
dangerous in dangerous Absolutely. Don't you know

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I've experienced it when I've traveled and I I 
choose not to put myself in those situations with

0:16:26.560,0:16:31.120
children. Yeah. It's it's a high stress dangerous 
environment. You're already going through enough.

0:16:31.120,0:16:36.640
You know, you you've got to be true to yourself 
and you can't be putting yourself and your family

0:16:36.640,0:16:40.720
in a dangerous situation where you have to 
overcome all of that when you're still trying

0:16:40.720,0:16:45.120
to Yeah, absolutely. But equally, you know, we 
choose to not, you know, that that doesn't define

0:16:45.120,0:16:50.400
who we are. We're just a normal family. We, you 
know, there's love, there's laughter, there's uh,

0:16:50.400,0:16:55.920
you know, this in incredible want to to do right 
by our children and and for them to to enjoy life

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and make the most of of every moment. It becomes 
about the kids. It becomes they're more than like

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your life becomes so secondary, tertiary, whatever 
you want to call it. It just isn't the main thing,

0:17:07.040,0:17:12.320
is it? No. You know, we've started by speaking 
about this, but actually it doesn't really come up

0:17:12.320,0:17:17.680
dayto-day for me anymore. I don't talk about it. 
I don't tend to to think about it too much because

0:17:17.680,0:17:22.960
it's it's in the I dealt with it a long time ago 
and I've accepted the world as it is and and just

0:17:22.960,0:17:27.120
tried to make the most of the world it is which 
we're all doing. We all have reasons that we we

0:17:27.120,0:17:33.680
perhaps feel we don't fit into the world. So it's 
no different. It's also important I feel like when

0:17:33.680,0:17:39.680
you talk about these things you get to understand 
someone you know you get to connect. You get to

0:17:39.680,0:17:44.640
feel what's going on in their heart and their 
soul. And when you communicate, you get you just

0:17:44.640,0:17:49.600
understand and ex you're more accepting of things. 
I think the public become more accepting when they

0:17:49.600,0:17:55.200
understand these things on a deeper level. Like 
what you go through, the feelings, the rejection,

0:17:55.200,0:18:02.160
the acceptance, the the fear, you know, the 
danger. I feel like that's all pretty important to

0:18:02.160,0:18:07.200
hear. I know it's Yeah. uncomfortable possibly to 
the last thing you want is to be talking about it,

0:18:07.200,0:18:13.520
but it's like should we be talking about it, 
you know? Yeah, I think so. And I think what's

0:18:13.520,0:18:18.800
important is, you know, in the years that that 
went it it tumbled really, which I'm sure we'll

0:18:18.800,0:18:23.200
come on to from from going to these parties and 
then into this world of of drink and drugs that

0:18:23.200,0:18:30.640
that became less savory, I suppose. And I I was 
unkind in some of those times and I was not a

0:18:30.640,0:18:36.720
nice person in in some of those moments. And I did 
things that now I, you know, I'm I'm ashamed of to

0:18:36.720,0:18:43.760
some extent. I've forgiven myself, but you know, 
wouldn't wouldn't ever do again. And you know,

0:18:43.760,0:18:50.720
when I see people that are sometimes acting in an 
unkind way or I I remember that I I was sometimes

0:18:50.720,0:18:55.760
that person and and all I needed was kindness. 
And it's so hard, isn't it? Because if somebody's

0:18:55.760,0:19:00.880
attacking you in any way or or or being difficult 
to be around or being unkind and being mean or

0:19:00.880,0:19:06.320
just being a not very nice person, you know, 
with attitude and and anything else, it's it's

0:19:06.320,0:19:12.480
not easy to be around. And why why should you be 
kind to them if they haven't been? But actually,

0:19:12.480,0:19:16.880
I think a lot of people ju just need kindness 
because underneath it probably comes from a

0:19:16.880,0:19:22.800
place of hurt and Yeah. There's something they're 
fighting there. Yeah. And it's Yeah. It can't be

0:19:22.800,0:19:29.600
easy. So you What was that experience like? You 
took drugs for the first time. What was that

0:19:29.600,0:19:38.880
like? You're actually quite older now to 2023. And 
that's the first time? Yeah. I' uh Who gave you?

0:19:38.880,0:19:43.360
I mean, don't say name, but like obviously was in 
the club. It's just in the club. Yeah. Yeah. And

0:19:43.360,0:19:49.040
in bars and people that would come back to our 
apartment or we'd have and Yeah. Yeah. I think

0:19:49.040,0:19:52.800
Did you not get Were you terrified the first time 
you saw the drugs? You thought, "Oh, that's drugs.

0:19:52.800,0:19:59.600
Oh my god." Yeah. No. I mean, I drank quite a lot. 
And you you know, and it I think it just gradually

0:19:59.600,0:20:06.640
came into my awareness that drugs were around and 
that just became more normal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

0:20:06.640,0:20:10.240
things do become normal even when they're not to 
everybody else in your world. If they're around

0:20:10.240,0:20:15.200
all the time, then it it gradually becomes normal. 
There's no point where I can remember thinking I'm

0:20:15.200,0:20:21.360
going to do this now. I don't remember the first 
time I did it or made the decision to It just sort

0:20:21.360,0:20:26.080
of blended with So, you were, you know, drinking, 
going out. So, obviously inhibitions are down

0:20:26.080,0:20:32.800
anyway. The drugs are there. People are trying it. 
Did your flatmates obviously trying it as well or

0:20:32.800,0:20:42.240
No, no, she didn't. No. No. No, no, it was it was 
just me. I She didn't need to. I think for me,

0:20:42.240,0:20:50.560
drink and drugs were an escape for me by that 
point. And when you depression is quite bad,

0:20:50.560,0:20:58.160
it's escape, you know, anything that anything. 
You made the choice to take them basically. You

0:20:58.160,0:21:02.560
you wanted I remember a conscious choice, but 
uh yeah, I would have done anything to escape.

0:21:02.560,0:21:07.600
And I think you've got to you've got to remember 
that things things happen gradually, don't they?

0:21:07.600,0:21:12.960
So there's not a for me anyway, there was never 
a moment until till further in the journey when

0:21:12.960,0:21:20.080
there was moments that I wanted things to end. But 
in the leadup to that, it was just that I started

0:21:20.080,0:21:26.160
to care less about being here, that perhaps 
I didn't mind whether I was here or not. I

0:21:26.160,0:21:30.480
know that sounds a silly thing to say. It's the 
best way I can describe how I was feeling that.

0:21:30.480,0:21:37.280
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But so you weren't very kind 
to your body. You were like, "No, no." And put

0:21:37.280,0:21:43.040
yourself in situations that were dangerous. And it 
happens. Yeah. You didn't really Yeah. And it And

0:21:43.040,0:21:48.480
it's funny because the less you care about being 
here, the more confident you become, you know,

0:21:48.480,0:21:53.120
in in going into those situations because you're 
like, "Well, I don't care if I get hurt. I don't

0:21:53.120,0:21:57.520
care if, you know, if such a thing happens." So, 
at this point, if they're passing around all these

0:21:57.520,0:22:01.680
different drugs, you're probably not even that 
interested in maybe what's, you know, you're not

0:22:01.680,0:22:06.880
going to be like, "What exactly is in this? How 
is it?" You know, you're just sort of like, "Yeah,

0:22:06.880,0:22:11.760
you know, who cares?" And this is all messing 
with your your mind and it's chemicals and it's

0:22:11.760,0:22:16.320
the alcohol and it's all going. Yeah. I know. You 
know, the thing with some drugs and and alcohol

0:22:16.320,0:22:20.400
is it makes you feel better in that moment. 
It makes you feel more confident. I suppose

0:22:20.400,0:22:24.880
it depends which drug you take. I'm not very 
experienced in a lot of drugs, but you know, the

0:22:25.520,0:22:30.240
for a moment it makes you feel better. And I think 
when you've got depression and you just feel dark

0:22:30.240,0:22:37.040
and nothing for so much of the time that feeling 
something can be better than feeling nothing for

0:22:37.040,0:22:42.080
a little bit. Yeah. Well, I mean it takes me to 
the the whole Liam pain thing, doesn't it? You

0:22:42.080,0:22:47.360
heard about Liam Pain from WD. It's like Yeah. You 
sort of think for someone on the outside looking

0:22:47.360,0:22:53.440
you think, but why did you take this stuff? Like 
why did you do that? No. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop.

0:22:53.440,0:22:56.240
Like why would you do that? Clearly, it's going to 
be dangerous. Clearly, you're going to be out of

0:22:56.240,0:23:00.160
control. Why would you waste your beautiful life? 
You're a star. You're this. Why? Why would you do

0:23:00.160,0:23:05.920
like what is going on? Surely you can just say no 
to that. Yeah, surely. It just doesn't work that

0:23:05.920,0:23:11.280
way. It just doesn't Why do you want to if you 
don't care enough? I don't know the guy. You know,

0:23:11.280,0:23:15.280
it's different for everybody, isn't it? But that 
could have easily been me. I could have fallen

0:23:15.280,0:23:20.480
off a balcony. I could have, you know, been run 
over. I could have done lots of things. And I'm

0:23:20.480,0:23:24.640
lucky that I'm still here and those things didn't 
happen. But I think certainly I put myself in I

0:23:24.640,0:23:30.720
think what I'm getting from you that it's just 
it's it's shocking in a way. It's like you didn't

0:23:30.720,0:23:36.080
you didn't care that the drugs were harming you. 
You were okay to hurt your body in that way. You

0:23:36.080,0:23:42.320
were okay to extent felt I deserved it. I by that 
time didn't believe I was that nice a person you

0:23:42.320,0:23:49.600
know. So yeah you've giving up on yourself in a 
way. Yeah. Yeah. And the drugs are shielding you

0:23:49.600,0:23:56.800
and the alcohol sort of protecting you in a way, 
isn't it? Really? Yeah. So, you're in this world,

0:23:56.800,0:24:02.640
you're doing that. It's sort of building up now. 
So, at what point did you realize that this,

0:24:02.640,0:24:09.280
you know, the drugs and alcohol becoming a a 
problem now? Well, at this point, I'd um myself

0:24:09.280,0:24:13.680
and my friend kind of had gone slightly separate 
ways. She'd met a guy, you know, at one of these

0:24:13.680,0:24:18.560
parties we'd been to who she's married to now, has 
children with, and is still a incredible friend.

0:24:18.560,0:24:26.560
Um, and um, and so she'd kind of moved in with 
him. And so I had this apartment and all this kind

0:24:26.560,0:24:35.520
of time and I I got into another relationship with 
a woman for the first time. Um, and I think I just

0:24:35.520,0:24:43.280
had the freedom to take even more because there 
was nobody around really to to go come on now,

0:24:43.280,0:24:50.720
you know. Um, so the fact so you were with us with 
a woman now, another woman, and you thought like

0:24:50.720,0:24:55.040
did that not make you feel better now that you 
can sort of be more yourself, be more did did

0:24:55.040,0:25:00.880
this not feel like I want you want to stop the 
drugs completely? No, because that relationship

0:25:00.880,0:25:04.400
wasn't very healthy. I don't look when you're 
not healthy and things aren't going well,

0:25:04.400,0:25:11.600
you're not attracted to a healthy environment. 
So, so that relationship she, you know, was

0:25:11.600,0:25:17.840
with a guy, you know, hadn't come to terms with 
any feelings that she had towards me. So, okay,

0:25:17.840,0:25:23.920
I think that's um that's not a relationship, isn't 
it? That we get into really unhealthy. You just b

0:25:23.920,0:25:28.640
from one unhealthy thing to another, don't you? 
when you're feeling that low about yourself. And

0:25:28.640,0:25:34.480
uh so yeah, things things kind of got worse. And 
you were noticing now I'm taking more drugs. I'm

0:25:34.480,0:25:40.240
getting more out of control. Yeah. Yeah. I I 
was by this point having um I'd been to the

0:25:40.240,0:25:47.200
doctors for depression. You know, I'd recognized 
that it perhaps wasn't normal how I felt about

0:25:47.200,0:25:52.560
not wanting to get up in the morning, struggling 
just to get to work. Um I look back, I don't know

0:25:52.560,0:25:57.680
how I kept a job to be honest. I don't know why 
they kept me in a job. Um I think I don't think

0:25:57.680,0:26:03.920
I was there very much. But um I think I just got 
away with it because I was always quite capable,

0:26:03.920,0:26:08.000
you know. I was always quite academic. So how many 
drugs and things were you doing at the stage and

0:26:08.000,0:26:14.320
alcohol? Was it just on more party and and night 
time? Probably from kind of Thursday through to

0:26:14.320,0:26:20.320
Monday, which is most of your week, isn't it? on 
Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Look at it

0:26:20.320,0:26:24.080
that it's a little bit like now when people say 
they're going to eat healthy and they, you know,

0:26:24.080,0:26:27.040
and then they get to Thursday and they're like, 
well, it's nearly weekend, isn't it? And I'll have

0:26:27.040,0:26:30.640
a treat and then that goes through to Monday. And 
I'm like, well, that's just your whole week, isn't

0:26:30.640,0:26:37.120
it? Thursday to Monday. Well, yeah. To recover 
Monday. Yeah. It um I' I'd tried anti-depressants

0:26:37.120,0:26:44.640
on and off, kind of half-hearted attempt. I'd been 
referred for counseling. I'd gone to a counselor.

0:26:44.640,0:26:49.280
didn't really engage with any counselors. I 
didn't think very much of of the first few

0:26:49.280,0:26:53.600
that I met. But then I met this woman who was 
a clinical psychologist. They obviously looking

0:26:53.600,0:26:56.880
back they obviously felt I needed deeper help 
because it went from a counselor at some point

0:26:56.880,0:27:02.400
to a clinical psychologist and a psychiatrist 
uh that was in the private and I was very lucky

0:27:02.400,0:27:10.000
because I was working at BER and BER in those days 
as an employee you had private cover. So I kind of

0:27:10.000,0:27:16.320
got pushed into this um world of psychiatrist and 
clinical psychologist and I met the most wonderful

0:27:16.320,0:27:28.480
psychologist who um I still have contact with 
to this day and um she absolutely helped in me

0:27:28.480,0:27:32.000
taking a different path in this world. I don't 
know what would have happened had I not met her

0:27:32.000,0:27:36.080
and perhaps there'd have been another clinical 
psychologist come along but she had a way with

0:27:36.080,0:27:41.200
me that other people hadn't before she managed 
to touch something. So just in terms of timelines

0:27:41.200,0:27:46.480
so you've got you got into this relationship 
turbulent relationship with this other woman.

0:27:46.480,0:27:53.200
It's not working out. She's not quite there. It's 
actually destabilizing you. Yes, you're, you know,

0:27:53.200,0:27:57.200
continuing with the drugs and alcohol on, you 
know, for Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday,

0:27:57.200,0:28:03.040
and then sort of recovering and just about going 
to work. Do you then decide I've got a problem?

0:28:03.040,0:28:08.240
Do you then see the clinical psychologist or 
what what happens? That had already s started,

0:28:08.240,0:28:13.440
I think. Um, so you were already seeing Yeah, 
clinical psychologist. Yeah. And starting to go

0:28:13.440,0:28:19.280
and then I realized You went to the priary? Yeah. 
I was weekly at these um outpatient appointments

0:28:19.280,0:28:27.760
with the clinical psychologist and um and they 
kind of continued but it got to a point where

0:28:27.760,0:28:35.440
yeah I got to 20 I was around 25. It was 2005 
and um just just didn't want to be here. I just

0:28:35.440,0:28:40.320
didn't I'd have to turn the lights off. If you 
if it was as easy as a light switch I'd have I'd

0:28:40.320,0:28:47.120
have switched it off but it's not as easy as a 
light switch fortunately. Um, yeah, that year

0:28:47.120,0:28:53.200
was tough. Just I can't even like how do you get 
to the point that you decide I don't want to be

0:28:53.200,0:28:59.760
here? Like that's Yeah. And I think what's most 
shocking for me now looking back is that I had a

0:28:59.760,0:29:05.040
loving family. You know, I have a loving family. I 
have a mom. Uh my dad who's who's not with me now,

0:29:05.040,0:29:11.600
but uh grandparents, aunties, uncles, you know, 
siblings as well. Yeah. And and and friends. And

0:29:11.600,0:29:17.360
but you're alone. you know. Yeah. Very alone. 
Very alone. And couldn't bear to tell them what

0:29:17.360,0:29:24.960
was really going on. So, if you're not you're not 
talking to them cuz they you know, they're further

0:29:24.960,0:29:29.440
away. You're just you're just not connecting with 
it. So, the people you've got around you at this

0:29:29.440,0:29:34.720
point, how are they impacting you? Well, by that 
point, the only people that I had around me really

0:29:34.720,0:29:40.560
were people that were drinking and taking drugs 
and were just coming along for the ride, you know,

0:29:40.560,0:29:45.280
yourself with the people that are just in it for 
the, you know, I was probably quite entertaining

0:29:45.280,0:29:48.800
in those days when we went out. You've got a 
front on, you you have a great Were you being

0:29:48.800,0:29:58.640
yourself at this stage? Were you sort of is is it 
part or you being genuine to yourself? No, you uh

0:29:58.640,0:30:02.640
to an extent. Yeah. You know, I had some great 
times as well. I had some there were some of

0:30:02.640,0:30:09.280
those friends that we had great nights out. We 
had great fun, but did it extend into anything

0:30:09.280,0:30:15.760
deeper or or more of a connection? Not really. I 
had a couple of friends that um I'd met at BER who

0:30:15.760,0:30:20.480
um did turn out to be the best of friends and 
sat with me, you know, by the time I was in the

0:30:20.480,0:30:25.120
priary, came and sat while I rocked in a corner, 
you know, would sit quietly with me while I

0:30:25.120,0:30:30.400
couldn't get out a darkened room and and and would 
just sit there and even when I tried to push them

0:30:30.400,0:30:36.560
away because I did, you know, because I tried to 
push everybody away. Um it's self-destruction,

0:30:36.560,0:30:40.800
isn't it? You know, you're just on self-destruct. 
That includes drink, drugs, pushing people away,

0:30:40.800,0:30:46.480
everything. Did the priary help you to not want 
the drink and drugs anymore? Did did it work in

0:30:46.480,0:30:51.360
in that sense? Yeah, it did. It gave me a break 
from life, you know, from the pressure of trying

0:30:51.360,0:30:57.520
to be some something else, somebody else. From 
the pressure of everything, from relationships,

0:30:57.520,0:31:03.280
from work, from I don't know, just life. You 
you you're in a bubble and you're with other

0:31:03.280,0:31:08.960
people that are at least as poorly as you. Yeah. 
So what year was So you were in the priary when

0:31:08.960,0:31:14.320
was that? What year? Uh 2005 Christmas into the 
new year over the Christmas period and into the

0:31:14.320,0:31:20.640
new year. Gosh, you know I used to walk past the 
priary sometimes. I lived in Southgate. Okay. And

0:31:20.640,0:31:24.720
I sometimes go past and I said to what's that 
and my husband and he sort of explained it to

0:31:24.720,0:31:32.080
me and I was like oh okay. It's just it's seemed 
like a very peaceful beautiful peaceful and yeah

0:31:32.080,0:31:38.320
trees and yeah I mean I was at one in in the north 
and uh same beautiful old building very peaceful

0:31:38.320,0:31:42.800
and I'd been there for sessions a lot of sessions 
by this point you know becoming an impatient was

0:31:42.800,0:31:50.640
almost just a a next step you know from being an 
outed that you surroundings I accepted it I even I

0:31:50.640,0:31:55.600
remember the woman on reception looking at me as 
if I was I was mad which I kind of was to to be

0:31:55.600,0:32:00.960
in the first place. I, you know, I um handed my 
car keys to her and she was like, "Have you driven

0:32:00.960,0:32:06.640
yourself here?" And I was like, "Well, yeah. 
You know, I've agreed to be here." So, you know,

0:32:06.640,0:32:11.360
I suppose I suppose it's disciplined of you. You 
know, even though your life's pretty turbulent,

0:32:11.360,0:32:16.160
there's a level of discipline that you're showing 
there. So, you're getting the treatment, you're

0:32:16.160,0:32:21.280
coming in, you're still seeing these, you've 
got these friends, you're sort of getting Yeah.

0:32:21.280,0:32:30.320
tempted in. What happens next? I uh had that few 
weeks at the priary and when I came out it just

0:32:30.320,0:32:38.400
felt like I'd had a real break and that I didn't 
think that life would perhaps change massively

0:32:38.400,0:32:45.040
for me that I was just a little bit stronger to be 
able to cope with it. And you know I'd started to

0:32:45.040,0:32:51.120
um I always did exercise and things but I'd not 
done for a few years and I was trying to do a

0:32:51.120,0:32:54.400
little bit of exercise again. I was just trying 
a little bit harder. showers. Just a few little

0:32:54.400,0:33:02.000
things. Okay, just trying a few little things. 
But um life quickly turned for me then. I'd

0:33:02.000,0:33:06.960
um reached that point of being in the priary 
over 2005, Christmas and New Year, and then my

0:33:06.960,0:33:14.880
dad suddenly passed away in March 2006. And that 
that was it. That that was the point. Oh gosh.

0:33:14.880,0:33:25.040
Yeah. So that threw you threw the the the whole 
healing out the window basically. That was it. Um,

0:33:25.040,0:33:31.200
yes and no. Everything just changed, you know. I 
mean, even today, I think there was life before

0:33:31.200,0:33:39.680
my dad died and there's life after. It's very 
different. Um, I I was a daddy's girl. I always

0:33:39.680,0:33:45.200
was, you know, I adored him. He was my hero. I 
loved him unconditionally. He We had a connection

0:33:45.200,0:33:51.760
that anybody that knew us knew we just had this 
connection. and even when I was poorly and even

0:33:51.760,0:33:58.400
when you know my mom loves me unconditionally 
and and and you know now he's incredibly proud

0:33:58.400,0:34:04.480
of me. Um with my dad there was just something a 
little bit deeper like I could look at him and I

0:34:04.480,0:34:07.680
know what he was thinking and he knew what I was 
thinking. I didn't have to say anything. Daddy's

0:34:07.680,0:34:13.200
daddy's little girl. Yeah. Yeah. And and when I 
was really, I got home one day from I think about

0:34:13.200,0:34:20.640
a three-day bender and he was sat on the doorstep 
with um it was a magic hat. When I was a little

0:34:20.640,0:34:24.640
girl, I used to have nightmares and my dad used 
to put this sun hat on me and tell me it was magic

0:34:24.640,0:34:32.000
and my nightmares used to go away. And um I got 
home and he was sat there and he'd kept it. Oh,

0:34:32.000,0:34:35.120
that's so cute. And I don't know how 
long he'd been sat there. He just said,

0:34:35.120,0:34:42.480
"I just knew, you know, I needed to come." Oh 
god. Um. Oh god, that's lovely. So, you know,

0:34:42.480,0:34:47.120
he he never judged my dad. He never when I told 
him that I was gay, I might as well have just told

0:34:47.120,0:34:52.800
him I'd spaghetti for tea. You know, he didn't he 
didn't care, you know. He just he was very forward

0:34:52.800,0:34:57.600
thinking and he just he just had no judgment of 
anybody. He was a very gentle character. Well,

0:34:57.600,0:35:04.080
he loved you, so that's it. There's no there's 
no other anything else. So, but that must have

0:35:04.080,0:35:10.640
been damn awful. Yeah. Yeah. the one. That's a 
knife in the heart. Yeah. Not the one cuz I I I

0:35:10.640,0:35:14.880
did have other family that desperately tried 
to be there for for me. I didn't let them,

0:35:14.880,0:35:19.040
you know. I I I didn't let my mom. I didn't let 
my auntie who I'm very close to. There were there

0:35:19.040,0:35:25.680
were lots of lots of people I didn't let anybody 
else. Whereas my dad never tried. He just kind

0:35:25.680,0:35:32.960
of potted around and was just there gently, you 
know, and then all of a sudden he he wasn't. And

0:35:32.960,0:35:40.960
uh yeah that it wasn't that my healing stopped. 
It was almost like my healing started which I know

0:35:40.960,0:35:46.560
sounds odd. Okay. What happened then? Well look 
we all have different beliefs don't we about the

0:35:46.560,0:35:51.200
world that we live in and about spiritual beliefs 
and things like that and um maybe I was already

0:35:51.200,0:35:56.880
open to some extent around spiritual beliefs 
but um I believe that my dad came to see me that

0:35:56.880,0:36:01.840
night which may sound crazy to a lot of people. 
I don't think it it really matters. it helped me

0:36:01.840,0:36:15.440
and um I just felt something different. I think 
one was that I couldn't let my dad see me doing

0:36:15.440,0:36:19.680
those things anymore. All of a sudden, I had this 
belief that he could still see me. I just couldn't

0:36:19.680,0:36:25.600
see him. Which which thing? So, what's the worst 
thing that you didn't want your dad to see about

0:36:25.600,0:36:31.920
you? Well, I didn't want him to see me drinking 
and taking drugs. I didn't want him to see me.

0:36:31.920,0:36:40.800
It really hurt my dad when I was hurting. You know 
that ET film when when when the boy's hurting and

0:36:40.800,0:36:45.680
ET hurt. That's the closest I can describe it. 
And it is for anybody. We all understand. That's

0:36:45.680,0:36:50.320
why the film was so successful. We all understand 
that bond. It's like now with my children, if they

0:36:50.320,0:36:56.400
hurt, I hurt 10 times as much, you know. And my 
dad, I could see the pain on his face even when

0:36:56.400,0:37:00.720
he pretended to be okay. the day that I went that 
I went and told him that I was going to go into

0:37:00.720,0:37:06.240
the priary for a few weeks to take a break. I'll 
never forget the look on his face and it wasn't

0:37:06.240,0:37:18.640
disappointment. It wasn't it was just it was just 
sadness. So, at this point with your dad passing,

0:37:18.640,0:37:26.640
had you in terms of your experience and your the 
drugs and and you said you didn't want to be here.

0:37:26.640,0:37:32.320
Had you by this point reached what you would 
consider your sort of rock bottom, you know,

0:37:32.320,0:37:40.560
in life. Yes. Yeah. I had by that point I think 
on paper they were classed as three I don't like

0:37:40.560,0:37:44.640
to say suicide attempts. I think that's what what 
doctors or the priary would have kind of referred

0:37:44.640,0:37:49.760
to them as. I'm not sure it's that easy to label 
these things. But there were three events where

0:37:49.760,0:37:54.800
I'd, you know, really put myself in harm's way and 
and not wanted to be here by the time I went into

0:37:54.800,0:38:01.120
the priary, which is why I agreed to it because I 
knew each time it was going to get worse. Um, so

0:38:01.120,0:38:09.040
yeah, I'd reached that point and I just couldn't 
bear my dad seeing that or that look on his face

0:38:09.040,0:38:14.000
to be the one that I was. Did he know about these 
three attempts? Well, you did. He didn't. No.

0:38:14.000,0:38:19.360
None of my family do. I've never spoken to them 
about it to this day. Okay, I shall be posting

0:38:19.360,0:38:24.000
this podcast anywhere where family members will 
see because I think it's too painful for them.

0:38:24.000,0:38:30.880
I don't think they need to. I don't think there's 
any um value in in them knowing those things now.

0:38:30.880,0:38:37.600
They they loved me. I just didn't let them at at 
that by by that time. And your dad your dad didn't

0:38:37.600,0:38:44.160
know that. Sorry. Just No. No. He I think he just 
knew from the connection that we had how much pain

0:38:44.160,0:38:50.480
I was in and that hurt him. But you knew obviously 
and the priory knew. Yes. Um and we won't go into

0:38:50.480,0:38:57.520
that. I can tell you don't you'd rather not. 
So, but all of that is in your mind and you're

0:38:57.520,0:39:03.280
thinking I just don't want to disappoint him. Is 
that what you're Yeah. thinking? I couldn't bear.

0:39:03.280,0:39:08.720
Yeah. That that look that he had on his face when 
I told him I was going in. That look of sadness.

0:39:08.720,0:39:14.800
Whenever I thought about doing something that 
potentially could lead to self harm, I just

0:39:14.800,0:39:21.120
saw that look and I thought, I can't I can't bear 
that. I can't I can't do that. And I all he would

0:39:21.120,0:39:29.120
want and all I can do for him now is get better. 
It's all I can do. He was so, you know, he used to

0:39:29.120,0:39:36.480
say I could do anything. And you know, that's 
it's it's incredible because it's like his um

0:39:36.480,0:39:40.800
he's looking out for you still, isn't he? And in 
his in his death, he's become like your guardian

0:39:40.800,0:39:46.960
angel. And he's your motivation now to steer you 
away from all that that world that that stuff,

0:39:46.960,0:39:51.200
you know. Yeah. And even now, you know, if I deal 
with some we still deal with this all the time,

0:39:51.200,0:39:55.120
don't we? You know, life carries on. And even 
though life might look on the surface like it's

0:39:55.120,0:39:59.760
all wonderful now, I still deal with stuff, you 
know, we all do. And I still have little things

0:39:59.760,0:40:06.000
that my dad would have said to me that I go, "Oh, 
that's what he meant." you know, so when we're

0:40:06.000,0:40:11.920
parenting and I now parent my children, I think I 
hope that they're they remember some things that

0:40:11.920,0:40:17.040
even though like I might have said something to my 
son yesterday who's nine and it went over his head

0:40:17.040,0:40:21.840
and he just asked me what was fatigue, maybe at 
some point further down the line, he'll go, "Ah,

0:40:21.840,0:40:26.880
that's what mom meant, you know, and maybe then 
that'll help." And you know, I've had, you know,

0:40:26.880,0:40:31.760
my mom's great and and and I've got other people 
in my life that have have helped since then. But

0:40:31.760,0:40:37.520
yeah, that that was a real real turning point. And 
I think a lot of people around me at that point

0:40:37.520,0:40:41.280
thought that that would be the end. You know, 
anybody that had seen how low I'd got knew that

0:40:41.280,0:40:45.840
I'd been an impatient in the priary, you know, 
drugged up in a different way by that point. I

0:40:45.840,0:40:54.720
was on all sorts of anti-depressants, dasopan, you 
know, zopacone, anything that that would help. Um,

0:40:54.720,0:41:01.520
there was a real concern here that this would be 
it for me, I think. And actually, from that point

0:41:01.520,0:41:11.760
on, I never considered not being here again. Oh. 
Um, I just had my mindset on getting better. And I

0:41:11.760,0:41:17.520
think what's because I because I get asked so many 
times when I speak at school, um, what was it? How

0:41:17.520,0:41:20.640
how did you get better? You know, what what did 
it? And what was your rock bottom? What was your

0:41:20.640,0:41:25.520
turning point? And I think I don't always like 
sharing that that was it because I think you don't

0:41:25.520,0:41:30.480
have to lose somebody that close to you to have a 
turning point because that's really demotivating

0:41:30.480,0:41:36.560
for people, isn't it, that are listening and 
think it just needs to be I think it's just

0:41:36.560,0:41:42.560
about finding something that's worth living for 
something inside. There's a little voice somewhere

0:41:42.560,0:41:49.600
inside that goes actually it's worth just trying 
it out, isn't it? Yeah. Because I suppose get

0:41:49.600,0:41:55.200
better. The thing that was I suppose the issue was 
that you didn't feel there was something to live

0:41:55.200,0:42:00.480
for and you didn't want to respect your body and 
you didn't like yourself I think if if I may say

0:42:00.480,0:42:06.560
that and then you sort of think well someone loved 
me. Yeah. You know and and I was good enough for

0:42:06.560,0:42:12.960
them but you kind of had to lose them to realize 
that. Yeah. Yeah. Wouldn't it have been great if

0:42:12.960,0:42:20.000
I could have realized all I lost it? But you 
had to sort of go through that journey. So, we

0:42:20.000,0:42:25.200
spoke about, you know, what happened and you you 
sort of the the rock, you know, the rock bottom,

0:42:25.200,0:42:31.520
which we don't we don't want to talk about, but 
it is what it is. And then your dad passes. So,

0:42:31.520,0:42:36.480
let's talk about the rebuilding cuz you've 
got to now rebuild this broken soul. You know,

0:42:36.480,0:42:40.160
you've got to piece yourself back together. So, 
what do you do? What do you do to piece yourself

0:42:40.160,0:42:46.400
back together? Uh it was quite a big thing for me 
to go and speak to some of those friends that had

0:42:46.400,0:42:52.880
been such good friends, you know, when I was 18, 
19, 20. Um the couple of friends that I'd made

0:42:52.880,0:42:57.520
at BER, you know, I sat down with them and one 
of them said to me, "You used to play football,

0:42:57.520,0:43:00.880
didn't you?" And I was like, "Yeah, I loved 
football." I'd have played it all day, every

0:43:00.880,0:43:07.120
day if society allowed. Yeah. Um yeah, I loved it. 
Well, why don't you go and join football? You'll,

0:43:07.120,0:43:10.880
you know, you'll find some people that aren't just 
trying to push drugs on you, you know, which is

0:43:10.880,0:43:18.560
what current friend crowd. Yeah. Yeah. Finding 
friends, I think is what she was saying. Yeah.

0:43:18.560,0:43:24.800
And I did I joined a football club and um started 
playing football again and met my wife who I'm

0:43:24.800,0:43:30.320
married to today and a group of friends who are a 
great group of friends. And I mean, look, it was

0:43:30.320,0:43:37.920
girls football and we went out a lot and we drank, 
but it was good, wholesome, normal levels weekend.

0:43:37.920,0:43:44.640
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a difference. There's a 
big difference. Yeah. And uh I I left BER because

0:43:44.640,0:43:50.000
I couldn't bear the the kind of shadows that that 
remained from there, which was a shame because it

0:43:50.000,0:43:55.520
was a fabulous company to work for and I'd enjoyed 
working. I'd met you to shed that skin. I did. I

0:43:55.520,0:44:00.080
did. and I couldn't walk in to the reception 
area where my mom had told me that my dad had

0:44:00.080,0:44:05.680
passed. Every morning I walked in and relived it. 
So I left. I got bounced around a couple of jobs

0:44:05.680,0:44:10.480
because I struggled. I was still struggling. 
It wasn't overnight. It took years. Yeah. It

0:44:10.480,0:44:16.640
took years, you know, I was on such a high dose of 
antid-depressants and sleeping tablets, you know,

0:44:16.640,0:44:24.720
to to to reduce those gradually took years. But 
I knew somewhere inside of me that I wanted to do

0:44:24.720,0:44:30.800
it. I knew that I was capable of doing something 
and I have quite a strong and I think I've always

0:44:30.800,0:44:35.920
had because I've thought about this is it since I 
had all those difficulties or did I feel it even

0:44:35.920,0:44:41.920
before that I have a strong sense of service 
of wanting to do good of wanting to make lives

0:44:41.920,0:44:46.960
better. I know that sounds a bit cliched, but to, 
you know, to help make life better for others cuz

0:44:46.960,0:44:52.640
cuz you've suffered yourself, some joy and some 
goodness and make the world a better place cuz

0:44:52.640,0:44:58.800
there's so much crap, isn't there? It's like an 
emotional shift, a mind, you know, a shaking up

0:44:58.800,0:45:03.680
to sort of wake up, you know, this is what you're 
doing is wrong. And then you were aware enough of

0:45:03.680,0:45:07.680
yourself to implement changes. It just made your 
life a little bit easier along the way. Like,

0:45:07.680,0:45:11.360
okay, that's a bit stressful for me. Seeing this 
thing is a bit stressful. I'm just going to avoid

0:45:11.360,0:45:16.880
that thing because it's a bit toxic. And then you 
gently gently move that aside and then let me just

0:45:16.880,0:45:21.680
find an easier and you've you've got to do that, 
don't you? Like you can't deal with everything

0:45:21.680,0:45:25.040
at the same time. You have to make life easier 
for yourself and then you found something you

0:45:25.040,0:45:31.760
enjoyed which is like oh I like football. Yeah. 
Boom. Yeah. That's like Yeah. You connect to your

0:45:31.760,0:45:36.720
old self. These are the things that people can do 
like what do you like? Yeah. What makes you happy?

0:45:36.720,0:45:42.240
What's a little bit toxic? Who's toxic in your 
life? Yeah. cut them out like literally. Yeah.

0:45:42.240,0:45:47.840
Absolutely. And that, you know, that's that's you 
have to you have to whether it's on social media

0:45:47.840,0:45:52.800
or whether it's just in life in day-to-day stuff. 
If they're not lifting you up. Yeah. If they don't

0:45:52.800,0:45:56.720
energize you or they don't lift you up or they 
don't make you feel good. I mean, everybody has

0:45:56.720,0:46:01.040
the odd day, you know, where they have an argument 
or whatever. That's different. That's different.

0:46:01.040,0:46:07.280
It's toxic. Toxins, you know, toxic people, but 
also toxins, like you say, in that environment.

0:46:07.280,0:46:15.040
Yeah. that reception room or that particular 
whatever road or Yeah. vibe you've got to it cut

0:46:15.040,0:46:19.120
it out. It's like a cancer. You've got to get rid 
of it. Yeah. And it's just making healthy choices,

0:46:19.120,0:46:24.640
isn't it? Dayto day. But it it didn't it didn't 
come easy. It took a long time. Yeah. But yeah,

0:46:24.640,0:46:29.920
you've done extremely well because you've had 
to pull yourself, yank yourself out of something

0:46:29.920,0:46:36.320
awful, you know, like sinking sand and you had to 
sort of drowning and you have to Yeah. and stay

0:46:36.320,0:46:41.280
stay here, you know. So, that that's another thing 
because you've got to continue. You've got to just

0:46:41.280,0:46:49.440
be strong and and pioneer forward. But I suppose 
for anyone listening, um what have you learned

0:46:49.440,0:46:59.440
about addiction and recovery that other people 
might not understand? You know, I I'm not I don't

0:46:59.440,0:47:03.680
think I'm the best person to talk about addiction 
because I look back and I think I took drugs to

0:47:03.680,0:47:11.440
escape. Was I an addict? I don't think so. I don't 
think uh you know I think addicts need a different

0:47:11.440,0:47:17.920
path. And I met addicts along the way. And um the 
support, the similarities, but there's also big

0:47:17.920,0:47:22.320
differences. You know, I used alcohol and drugs to 
escape and to escape what I was dealing with. And

0:47:22.320,0:47:28.400
therefore, I needed to sort those things out. 
And I needed to, you know, look at what it was

0:47:28.400,0:47:32.240
that was making me feel that way about myself and 
correct them and correct the internal message and

0:47:32.240,0:47:38.080
be kind to myself and and all those things. And 
naturally, I I didn't have a point where I said,

0:47:38.080,0:47:42.400
"I'm not drinking from tomorrow. I'm not 
taking another drink from tomorrow." No,

0:47:42.400,0:47:47.280
it just gradually became less and less because the 
more I was kind to myself, the more I gave myself

0:47:47.280,0:47:52.160
credit for the things that I did do to help other 
people and that that I did, you know, perhaps I

0:47:52.160,0:47:56.960
wasn't all bad. you know, perhaps there was a 
nice little part of me that could come out. And

0:47:56.960,0:48:04.000
um that I think that's different. Uh that, you 
know, gradually I didn't want to drink anymore

0:48:04.000,0:48:08.560
and I didn't I didn't need to I didn't need to 
take drugs. I didn't need to drink. And and and

0:48:08.560,0:48:13.840
life just gradually changed. And you know what? 
Are we 20 years on and it's still evolving? I'm

0:48:13.840,0:48:19.280
still learning how to be kinder to myself. So 
for someone then in that case who's trying to

0:48:19.280,0:48:25.600
escape you know and they're drinking to escape 
or you know whatever taking drugs to escape what

0:48:25.600,0:48:30.000
advice do you have to them based on what you've 
gone through other ways to escape you know that's

0:48:30.000,0:48:36.640
not escaping those things is just running towards 
more darkness you know it only leads towards that

0:48:36.640,0:48:42.000
and it's so temporary you know your fix lasts 
a couple of hours if that and you're the one

0:48:42.000,0:48:45.680
that's still running around at 7:00 in the morning 
trying to get everybody to continue the night out

0:48:45.680,0:48:50.960
and most normal people have, you know, gone and 
got on with their lives and it's a lonely lonely

0:48:50.960,0:48:58.160
world. You know, the the real escape is to find 
healthy communities and activities to get involved

0:48:58.160,0:49:02.480
in where everybody else is battling something. 
Everybody's struggling. You know, for me it was

0:49:02.480,0:49:08.160
football, but I'm now in other communities, you 
know, running communities and I like to try any

0:49:08.160,0:49:12.640
activity possible. I went open water swimming this 
year and there's a whole community of people there

0:49:12.640,0:49:18.560
to access. It's so good, you know, Thrilling. 
Yeah. And those I think there's so much more now,

0:49:18.560,0:49:24.400
isn't there? You can listen to loads of podcasts 
and there's loads of things around nutrition and

0:49:24.400,0:49:30.240
activities and communities that you can access. 
Do you know what? I had I met this um I'm not

0:49:30.240,0:49:35.200
going to give away personal details, but I met 
this this woman about 2 years ago or something

0:49:35.200,0:49:40.080
and she was quite into all this sort of stuff, 
you know, and um heavy drinker and we know for

0:49:40.080,0:49:44.800
sure she was doing drugs and things, but she she 
got she started to, you know, speak to me and

0:49:44.800,0:49:49.840
whatever and we're talking what talking and then 
she's like, "Well, what's your vice? Come on, what

0:49:49.840,0:49:54.800
do you do? What do you do? You must do something. 
Come on." And she was really believing, you know,

0:49:54.800,0:49:59.520
I was like, "What do you what do you mean?" It 
wasn't. But she was like, "What?" Basically,

0:49:59.520,0:50:03.920
I assume the question is, "What do you do to 
get this thrill kick? What is it? What drugs

0:50:03.920,0:50:10.400
of choice or something, you know?" And I was like 
thinking about genuinely the answer to that is I

0:50:10.400,0:50:17.600
love competition and exercise. And yes, especially 
the competitive thing, I find it thrilling. Even

0:50:17.600,0:50:23.760
if I'm on my own, I'm competing with myself 
on that run, walk, that's thrilling. Yeah,

0:50:23.760,0:50:30.800
absolutely. And finding that sense of purpose. I 
think when you find a sense of purpose, and I have

0:50:30.800,0:50:34.800
a few, you know, I have a sense of purpose around 
my work and my business and that's a very purpose-

0:50:34.800,0:50:41.680
driven business and that, you know, has given me 
so much. My strongest sense of purpose is being

0:50:41.680,0:50:47.520
a mom. Yeah. You know, for sure. you know, over I 
would give everything else up to be the best mom I

0:50:47.520,0:50:51.760
could be to my two children, but I think that me 
balancing things like work and showing them that

0:50:51.760,0:50:56.160
it's healthy to exercise and all those things is 
important. So, um there's that and then the sense

0:50:56.160,0:51:00.720
of purpose around health and wellbeing. I mean, 
what have we got if we haven't got our wellbeing?

0:51:00.720,0:51:07.360
You know, is you only have to be someone that goes 
through a health scare to realize that oh god that

0:51:07.360,0:51:11.600
you know that I think a lot of people listening 
are going through their health scares right now.

0:51:11.600,0:51:16.000
I mean, everyone's getting nothing else matters at 
that point, does it? You can get another job. So

0:51:16.000,0:51:20.800
scary. You know, you can you can you have to have 
breaks from exercise and all these other things,

0:51:20.800,0:51:28.400
but you can go back to it, you know, but your 
health and so the last few years for me is

0:51:28.400,0:51:32.560
uh time is allowed being a mom. Uh it's not easy 
when they're little ones, is it? But as they're

0:51:32.560,0:51:37.360
getting a bit older and I've got a bit more time 
for me is around nutrition, sleep, you know,

0:51:37.360,0:51:42.720
and doing the things that just keep me well and 
hopefully healthy for as long as I can be. Yeah.

0:51:42.720,0:51:47.120
I used to not be that bothered with health till 
I became a mom. And then it's like you worry

0:51:47.120,0:51:52.160
about if you're not there for them. Absolutely. 
It's all about absolutely, you know, I was 26,

0:51:52.160,0:51:57.200
which for some people when my dad died, I was 26. 
And some people have lost parents much younger

0:51:57.200,0:52:02.560
than that. you know, I was an adult to most 
people, but actually I was too young. You know,

0:52:02.560,0:52:08.320
that that felt young and looking back it feels 
young. Um, I don't want to be I don't want my

0:52:08.320,0:52:14.400
children to be only 26. I want them to be Yeah. 
well into being a parent themselves and adult and

0:52:14.400,0:52:19.040
and all these things. So, what is your I mean, we 
touched on the career in the beginning, but what

0:52:19.040,0:52:25.040
does what does your career look like now and what 
drives you? Well, I uh I fell into recruitment

0:52:25.040,0:52:29.120
as most people do. Anybody that's that works in 
recruitment, if you ask them how they got into it,

0:52:29.120,0:52:34.000
they'll say they fell into recruitment. Um because 
it was health health care. I'd enjoyed working at

0:52:34.000,0:52:42.080
BER. There was always that healthcare um side to 
it. Um fell into the world of uh nursing agencies,

0:52:42.080,0:52:47.200
which gets quite a lot of bad press uh because 
obviously the NHS spends quite a bit of money

0:52:47.200,0:52:57.120
on nursing agencies. Um but I got to a point 
where um I realized that actually I could drive

0:52:57.120,0:53:02.560
this purpose-driven business where we decrease the 
amount that the NHS is having to spend on agency

0:53:02.560,0:53:10.000
by building the technology which we've done um to 
automate integrate uh transactions that mean the

0:53:10.000,0:53:14.320
cost can come down a lot for the NHS. The costs 
have got to come down. Yeah, absolutely. And so

0:53:14.320,0:53:18.960
it's a range and the quality up. Absolutely. the 
quality. I mean, the nurses and the health care

0:53:18.960,0:53:23.120
professionals that we have, they're just they're 
the people that you should have on this podcast,

0:53:23.120,0:53:27.280
they are the most incredible people, and they've 
been through so much with the pandemic. They

0:53:27.280,0:53:31.280
always put everybody else first. They're just 
incredible. And I have this privileged job of

0:53:31.280,0:53:37.600
getting to work with them and and being a part 
of this this long-term sustainable workforce plan

0:53:37.600,0:53:47.200
that that we have in place now for the NHS. So 
what's your your goal your ideal uh career-wise?

0:53:47.200,0:53:54.320
I would like the business uh for Nell to have 
really changed that landscape for agencies to

0:53:54.320,0:54:00.320
have to work in a more innovative way to bring the 
cost down for the NHS. The NHS needs a flexible

0:54:00.320,0:54:06.320
workforce. It can't come away from it, you know, 
it needs it. um but to to really inspire other

0:54:06.320,0:54:11.440
agencies to to drive that cost down and form part 
of this workforce plan. But in addition to that,

0:54:11.440,0:54:16.000
I'm just in the beginning of conversations 
around setting up a charity with a couple

0:54:16.000,0:54:20.720
of wonderful people that are on board and gonna 
help because one thing that we do really well is

0:54:20.720,0:54:25.440
we connect people with organizations. And there 
are so many organizations out there in the world

0:54:25.440,0:54:31.360
that need healthare professionals. And we have 
this app that connects all these people together.

0:54:31.360,0:54:35.680
And we can use the app to connect the thousands 
of healthare professionals that we have on our

0:54:35.680,0:54:43.360
books to charities across the world that access 
communities that perhaps have no access to health

0:54:43.360,0:54:49.120
care. You know, these are communities that don't 
have clinics or hospitals and uh and they need

0:54:49.120,0:54:54.160
health care professionals as volunteers to go and 
help them set the services up and uh leave them

0:54:54.160,0:55:03.040
more self sustaining. That would be a wonderful 
thing to do. That would be the goal. Yeah. So,

0:55:03.040,0:55:09.920
do you regret your your past, let's say, the the 
darker side of what you've had to go through,

0:55:09.920,0:55:16.160
or would you do it all again? No. I mean, it would 
have been nice if I'd not had to go through those

0:55:16.160,0:55:24.560
things or some of those things to get to where I 
am. Um, and there are some actions that I took in

0:55:24.560,0:55:31.360
my darkest moments that hurt other people that I 
would not do again. But I don't think you can have

0:55:31.360,0:55:37.440
regrets because it doesn't serve a purpose anyway. 
I've met some incredible people. It's given me

0:55:37.440,0:55:44.400
resilience, determination. And it's given me 
skills that I hope to share with other people. And

0:55:44.400,0:55:50.800
you know, maybe even just help one younger person, 
younger me, get through this life without quite as

0:55:50.800,0:55:59.040
much of the darkness in it, then no, no regrets. 
It's all good. No regrets. You're here. Jane,

0:55:59.040,0:56:06.014
thank you for coming on our podcast. You're 
very welcome. Thank you for having me. [Music]