Why Getting Rejected Can Be the Best Thing to Happen to You

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in this episode I interview Michelle nizzle who 
was actually on the same series of apprentice

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as I was now I might have been a little bit 
responsible for Michelle getting fired in

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week one however Michelle isn't bothered because 
Michelle is running at least seven businesses she

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has won multiple Awards we go into everything 
about the apprentice and how to succeed in

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business as a woman we discuss mental health we 
discuss what it's like to be a woman in business

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and winning resp peaceful success so tune [Music] 
in Michelle welcome to the podcast thank you for I

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am so happy to have you in I'll tell you the main 
reason I'm really happy is because you're proving

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everyone wrong you've gone out in week one on The 
Apprentice but look at you six seven businesses

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that you're running successful businesswoman L 
sugar must be crying crying what happened I was

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shocked to go out in week one but at the same 
time I've made the most of it right so let's

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go back a little bit why did you apply in the 
first place I've I've run businesses since my

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early 20s and you know you could probably relate 
to this it's really lonely and I was a female

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running businesses so there wasn't back then I'm 
I certainly wasn't the only female entrepreneur

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but there wasn't many of us certainly where I 
live yeah in quite a small Market town so I did

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it because I was lonely you know because I really 
wanted to mix with other entrepreneurs and gauge

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myself against you know how am I doing because 
I you know from a very early age I've been the

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boss so it's like H how can you compare yourself 
against other business owners where you go and put

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yourself through the biggest TV show you know in 
the country and see so for me it was a challenge

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could I actually get on the show and then how 
could I do on the show so besides feeling that

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you know you were a bit different what in your 
personality really just be honest gave you the

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courage to do this I'm super competitive 
so you know if I'm going to do something

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I'm going through this process to win it right um 
what people don't actually know is I did actually

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apply for the show was it it was the Olympic 
year so actually yeah I don't think you knew

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that did you no I didn't hadn't made it through 
at that point as you know you never know you're

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on the show until you're on the show right um 
so but I I'd made it through a few rounds and

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I thought you know what I don't think I'm ready 
for this right now I didn't apply again until

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was it about six years later um and I just had 
this gut feeling so I actually applied for The

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Apprentice 5 minutes before it closed right 
so literally I think it was me midnight was

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the closing time um and I just had this I didn't 
even know that they were the applications were

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out again um and I just come across it online on 
social media I think it was um and I just knew

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that I was going to be a candidate so I just 
applied know these things I just it was just

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a got I said on the show spoke to I spoke 
to a couple of other of the ex- candidates

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and you just know yeah you just know I I did my 
application and I thought I'm in so how did you

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find the interview process you said difficult 
I wish everyone could experience it because it

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was the hardest thing that I've ever had to do 
you know I remember having the UHS meeting with

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a psychologist and I nearly didn't do the show I 
nearly pulled out and the psychologist really put

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me through my Paces because she said do you um 
Michelle put your baby to bed every night and I

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said absolutely I do and she said he's not even 
going to know who you are in the 12we process

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and that I was just like I can't I went home 
and spoke to my husband and said I can't do

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this like I can't do it and he said you are doing 
it because literally like you I'm not going to put

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up with you going I could have got on the show 
I could have got on the show but yeah I nearly

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didn't do it because of that What feelings did you 
experience when you got on the show it was quite

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emotional you know I was made a project manager 
on the first task you were indeed yeah that's

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how I got fired um but never be project manager 
on the no never be project manager on the first

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time but you know the I was I was super emotional 
that day so we had a wake up called like 3:00 a.m.

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and I literally not slept the night before and I 
remember waking up going into the bathroom doing

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my makeup and um thinking what have I let myself 
in for you know serious overwhelming isn't it

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overwhelming yeah the whole Pro I mean the whole 
process is set up to absolutely test you and I

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think again what people don't see is we make silly 
mistakes on that show because you are literally

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pushed to your limits well I think we make silly 
mistakes on the show but the show is also it's

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a TV production I think which there is business 
within that but it's also there for entertainment

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so obviously the stress that's created and the 
scenarios that the pressure that you put under

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is deliberate to kind of you know and and as 
and the lack of family cont contact it's all

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deliberate to stress you out which would never 
have in real life but I did enjoy it I really

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enjoyed it I enjoyed the filming I I absolutely 
loved getting to know the production team you

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know that was my favorite part is I love Creative 
people so you know and in my world in my job in

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my industry it's very much Professional Services 
so it's Finance so yes there are some people with

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creativity but it's not the same as being around 
people that are making a TV show and that was

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for me that was that was a blessing I absolutely 
loved it and hence why since that show I've gone

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on to do as much TV and media work that I possibly 
can do because I just absolutely love the process

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okay so what did you think of some of the other 
candidates let's be honest now I thought some

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obviously have got huge characters um I wasn't 
there to be a celebrity I've never wanted to be

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a celebrity I've got zero interest in it I think 
when you go on a show like that you do attract a

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lot of media attention but that's not why I did 
it I did it for the experience whereas I think

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there was some people on the show that obviously 
went different re think some people wanted to go

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in for celebrity and do you think they were chosen 
and selected with that in mind that these are the

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celebrity people these are business people still 
do you think so are still smart business people

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I think every and I think that's another thing 
that people don't understand about the show every

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single candidate you would have employed in your 
business you know that's right you know I I agree

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with this which is why I wanted this platform as 
well because it's true every single person that

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was there had something there was something to 
them either they were incred actually most were

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good at sales let's be clear everyone could sell 
you wouldn't you wouldn't make it on the show if

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you can't sell um but they all had some sort of 
business acument and some were crazier than others

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some were more you know professional let's say 
some were a little bit more out there but they

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all had something the crazy thing for me to watch 
was in the house everybody's your mate and then

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when it's filming we're ruthless with each other 
and and the switch is immediate and I found that

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brilliant because actually that's what I'm like 
in my business life is right in business you have

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to turn it on sometimes and actually be someone 
that you're probably not quite naturally so um you

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know my husband always says he never would have 
married business Michelle you know he would have

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married Shelly and I think that that that was the 
same Dynamics on the show was when we were in the

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house we're all friends we're all getting on we 
all have glass wi with each other I have slightly

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different take on that in that I am I treat 
I'm very much like my business my clients you

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know whoever I'm working with even professionally 
when I was working for people and now that I have

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my own business I treat everyone in a similar way 
I I do have this thing where it's it's all family

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to me and when someone's close to me the clients 
are close to me I bring them into my network and

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I I did find that odd the Turning but I kind 
of expected it let's say from from some of the

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candidates it's not necessarily what I would 
do though yeah I mean I don't mean that um I'm

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still a really nice person at work it's just I'm a 
lot uh fiercer I would say that's not necessarily

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with clients it's it's with I think if you show 
any sign of weakness say with you show it to the

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candidates you finished yeah exactly and I think 
that you know sadly I I've had to have a different

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type of facade where I'm an absolute real softy at 
heart you know so I found it difficult in business

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you have to make decisions that not everybody 
likes so that that's sort of what I mean um so

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clients get to know almost Shelly and actually 
in the business world you know because otherwise

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people are coming after your business people are 
coming after your clients you know um and and

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sadly I've had to behave in in a way where you're 
very clear you're very direct yes um so that

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people can't misunderstand or misinterpret what 
you're saying or where you're coming from whereas

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at home I'm not like that at all I'm all I'm super 
fun and relaxed of course and also when you're

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working with clients a lot of these relationships 
last years hopefully that's the goal you know 5

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six seven 8 10 years um and they get to know you 
the majority of my clients have been with me 20

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years you know which is crazy awesome um been with 
me through my journey and I think they've loved

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watching my journey I think that they're super 
proud that they've been a part of that you know

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and also I think the comments that I get quite 
a lot is it hasn't gone to my head and I'm super

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grounded and you are grounded you know whether you 
know even the clients where I might be doing like

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a 25 Grand mortgage I treat them exactly the 
same than a client where I'm doing A5 million

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pound mortgage so although the difference in the 
money is obviously huge um every client to me is

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important and every client feels like they're my 
only client and that's what I've managed to retain

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to be able to do and I think that is probably one 
of the secrets of the the success of me running

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my businesses you know some of these clients have 
dealt with me 10 times over in the 20e period And

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I don't think for a second that they're going to 
stay with me again one minute you're right at the

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top next minute you're right down there it can H 
business is a risk it just is anything can change

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and also with your health things like that so you 
can never allow that that sort of arrogance and

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complacency I don't think that's there's a place 
for that in business you've got to be prepared for

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the roller coaster but it's that's I love about 
business so there was a few uh things I had to

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sort out on the way up here where emergencies 
where you know clients have found a property

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and they desperately need something sorting 
right there and then so then I'm calling around

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the agents and things and I think it's that that 
keeps me going you think you do you think you're

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addicted to stress I think I handle stress really 
well I don't try and see it as stress I try and

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see it as a challenge and it's how to overcome 
those challenges um and yes I I've worked with

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therapists I've worked with psychologists I would 
definitely recommend everybody needs therapy even

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if you don't think you need therapy so you worked 
with a therapist to help you manage stress so

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they've taught you techniques to help you yeah and 
it's all about controlling the way your thought

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process and actually also controlling that you 
can't control other people's thought processes

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oh that's a huge that was huge for me huge that 
was hu and actually CU it's so tempting yeah and

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actually it was working with a therapist that 
made me realize that cuz my expectation levels

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on myself are so high you know incredibly high 
that I'm never going to meet them that that's

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my issue that's it um and so it expectations on 
myself were super high so expectations on my team

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were super high yes and actually working with a 
therapist made me see that good is good enough and

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and they work for me for a reason you know in the 
sense that they're amazing but I have to lower my

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expectations in the sense of of them you mean of 
them and and of myself sometimes because otherwise

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if your expectations are so high you'll never 
you're always going to feel defeated I think if

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I can deliver anything to any entrepreneur mail 
or femil it is you have to work on yourself so

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I've always been you know personal development's 
always been higher on my agenda and really looking

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at what is it that I can improve on personally 
you know and so I I've always gone into therapy

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sessions and God oh my goodness I've done this or 
or I think this about this person or you know can

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you please work with me on to you know I mean the 
therapists have said they've never met anyone so

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honest or self-aware and I think you I think most 
people's issues that I've come across is the fact

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that they're not self-aware and that actually 
you will find it difficult to change unless

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you address the issues that you have so therapy 
interesting totally interesting and something

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that I'm definitely going to look into into you're 
on The Apprentice you got on brilliant interview

0:13:33.120,0:13:39.840
process for all those months you get in you're 
buzzing excited competitive but then you get

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fired in week one how did you take that not very 
well I was just completely shocked and also when

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I was going into the boardroom I think a couple 
of people you know a couple of people in the

0:13:54.760,0:13:59.040
production team had gone Michelle you got this you 
ain't going anywhere yeah so of course I'd gone

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really cocky if I'm being honest so really cocky 
didn't say too much because I genuinely thought

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that he had a plan he knew what the plan was 
and I wasn't going anywhere he you mean Lord

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sugar yeah and um and actually that was um the 
biggest mistake that I made was again learning

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from that in business is don't ever be complacent 
don't ever take things for granted so I'd sort of

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gone in and not really done too much the boardroom 
so when he fired me he just felt absolutely yeah I

0:14:33.200,0:14:39.360
was in absolute shock so it was the ne I think it 
was the next morning I get my phone back and so I

0:14:39.360,0:14:44.760
ring my H my husband was obviously the first call 
that I made yes and he was like oh thank God for

0:14:44.760,0:14:51.720
that um cuz like literally being at home dealing 
needed yeah he needed me and so you know obviously

0:14:51.720,0:14:56.360
a week was enough for him so he was like well done 
like really proud of you but so glad you're coming

0:14:56.360,0:15:01.800
home yeah and then I rang my little sister and 
and she works for me in my businesses and she is

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like literally my biggest supporter and I rang her 
and she was just like screaming she was like oh my

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God you know Lord sugar stopped the show because 
he knows he's seen you and he he's made you the

0:15:14.480,0:15:21.800
winner already after one week and I was just like 
I was like Lindsay honestly he hasn't I've been

0:15:21.800,0:15:28.280
kicked out but she's so believed in me so sweet 
and I love telling that story cuz I'm just like

0:15:28.280,0:15:34.760
as if he's stop filming so it sounds like you had 
the right support network around you and then you

0:15:34.760,0:15:38.960
sort of licked your whs didn't you and then got 
up again yeah do you know what because obviously

0:15:38.960,0:15:43.240
you you know you're not allowed to tell anyone and 
the close people that you are allowed to tell so

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I told a couple of people in my team were allowed 
to know I think my accountant was allowed to know

0:15:48.000,0:15:51.800
and my immediate family because obviously you got 
to make up a story as to where why you're going

0:15:51.800,0:15:58.120
to go away for three months and no one's going to 
see you so um obviously I'd called the members of

0:15:58.120,0:16:03.640
my team and um you know they they were shocked 
but obviously really Chu that I'd done it and

0:16:03.640,0:16:08.880
then I couldn't see anyone for a couple of days so 
like literally I went home spent a couple of days

0:16:08.880,0:16:14.360
at home just trying to like process process 
and then I booked a holiday to Disney World

0:16:14.360,0:16:20.080
straight away what a good idea yeah so that's 
it yeah that was it I was like distraction yeah

0:16:20.080,0:16:23.880
absolutely well that's a tactic I mean instead 
of sitting there sort of letting things get into

0:16:23.880,0:16:29.640
your head too much and sort of you know off you 
go to Disney World yeah and actually the um The

0:16:29.640,0:16:36.200
Producers were there you know helping me pack 
my stuff um when I left the show and they said

0:16:36.200,0:16:42.680
something um that has always stayed with me they 
said Michelle you never appreciate what you've

0:16:42.680,0:16:48.080
achieved so far in life um and it was after that 
that I got a therapist for the first time even if

0:16:48.080,0:16:52.600
I'd have won I think it would have been the same 
you know I've done it I've achieved it let's move

0:16:52.600,0:16:58.840
on so for ages for probably a couple of years I 
couldn't even talk about it yeah same actually

0:16:59.400,0:17:04.920
quite hard yeah yeah and now it's like you know 
no that's a big part of my journey I'm super

0:17:04.920,0:17:09.760
proud of that journey and it wasn't that I wasn't 
ever proud of it it was just that through therapy

0:17:09.760,0:17:16.120
I've learned that actually living in the moment 
and actually I always wanted to be present and I

0:17:16.120,0:17:21.560
wanted to you know people would go oh but you're 
so successful and and I I never felt successful

0:17:21.560,0:17:26.960
you know I never felt like I'd achieved anything 
so that's why I was always like I'm done with that

0:17:26.960,0:17:32.840
let's move on I've got to always go bigger and 
better I I I don't know not everyone goes in with

0:17:32.840,0:17:37.440
that mindset though to be fair that I'm going to 
win some going in and have the obviously I want to

0:17:37.440,0:17:42.760
go in and be famous I'm going and I'll go see how 
it goes not everyone is I'm I'm going to win but

0:17:42.760,0:17:47.560
obviously the more competitive you are the more 
you want to win yeah for me it was not an option

0:17:47.560,0:17:54.000
not to win um and I think that's why I was so 
devastated when I but week one I think the thought

0:17:54.000,0:18:00.240
process was as you know like it wasn't my choice 
to be project manager you know um my family the

0:18:00.240,0:18:06.120
only thing my family said to me when I went in was 
do not be project manager week one so I got voted

0:18:06.120,0:18:12.080
to be project manager yeah you you did and um you 
know I didn't ask for it and actually spent hours

0:18:12.080,0:18:17.720
deliberating I was like no no no no I think it 
was a tactic um because no one really wanted to be

0:18:17.720,0:18:22.920
project manager was very brave of you yeah suppose 
that's a good well you know what I thought so in

0:18:22.920,0:18:28.800
the end I gave in because I was like you know 
what if I am going to go out of this process I'm

0:18:28.800,0:18:34.520
going to go out leading from the front cuz I am 
a leader I'm a natural leader and I thought where

0:18:34.520,0:18:41.480
I would have regretted the the process is if I'd 
got kicked out and just been hiding around in the

0:18:41.480,0:18:45.640
background like I'm not a background person oh no 
no no you're definitely not you know for me it was

0:18:45.640,0:18:50.200
like just sort of hanging around yeah yeah hanging 
around not doing anything and and hiding in in the

0:18:50.200,0:18:55.120
background until like week you know the end of the 
process terrible yeah terrible you know that's not

0:18:55.120,0:19:00.840
my style so I was like you know what I'm if I'm 
if I'm going to go and I'm going to be fired I'm

0:19:00.840,0:19:05.800
going to be project manager cuz that's the way to 
go out yeah so now that you've had your therapy

0:19:05.800,0:19:12.320
what has The Apprentice taught you about yourself 
it taught me to slow down so I was on the verge

0:19:12.320,0:19:16.480
the reason I got a therapist was I was on the 
verge of setting up another business which would

0:19:16.480,0:19:26.160
have been my eighth company um and I actually 
at this point I'd had my daughter Isabella and

0:19:26.160,0:19:30.840
I thought when the children are older because 
you think oh you're doing it for them all the

0:19:30.840,0:19:37.800
time it's just an excuse for me it was about not 
facing up to actually being a m is really hard um

0:19:37.800,0:19:44.920
you know and running businesses for me was giving 
me self you know gratification and also it meant

0:19:44.920,0:19:50.360
that I didn't have to face up to actually being a 
parent is really hard and I've not really you know

0:19:50.360,0:19:55.960
no one teaches you how to be a parent you know 
there's no parents school and I remember sitting

0:19:55.960,0:20:00.560
there one day and just sort of going you know I 
don't want the kids to be 18 and gone all hasn't

0:20:00.560,0:20:06.720
mom got a successful business but actually I've 
spent no time with her so hard yeah so that that

0:20:06.720,0:20:12.200
was the point but being a m wasn't natural for 
me because all I'd ever known was this business

0:20:12.200,0:20:19.360
treadmill of you know running businesses and um 
just more more more more more not necessarily more

0:20:19.360,0:20:24.560
money that was the thing it wasn't really about 
the money for me it was about the success and

0:20:24.560,0:20:32.560
how you know I'd never felt good enough genuinely 
now I am a lot more present than I ever have been

0:20:32.560,0:20:38.560
I pick my children up from school and it's 
just about you know being able to put them

0:20:38.560,0:20:45.000
first So that obviously when they are older yeah 
you know you know my my parents they were um had

0:20:45.000,0:20:50.600
very successful careers not entrepreneurial at all 
but in the Civil Service and I think really just

0:20:50.600,0:20:56.680
the trauma came from um when I was 17 they you 
know they sadly went through a divorce they got

0:20:56.680,0:21:04.440
on absolutely fine now but there was a divorce and 
then um you know the trauma started with we nearly

0:21:04.440,0:21:10.800
lost our house so it it got it was on the Brinker 
repossession okay and the car did get repossessed

0:21:10.800,0:21:16.840
and that was the car that I was driving yeah 
horrible and that's the trauma is that we'd lost

0:21:16.840,0:21:22.560
absolutely everything and I didn't have a choice 
to do I had to drop out of a levels I had to get

0:21:22.560,0:21:27.920
you know I worked three jobs um put a roof over 
mine and my little sister's head and and that's

0:21:27.920,0:21:34.520
why we're so close and she works with me in my 
businesses um and that's where the drive came from

0:21:34.520,0:21:40.120
and that's what I had to unpick because my fear 
was always like that's never going to happen to

0:21:40.120,0:21:46.640
me so you know obviously watching your parents go 
through that where you know they nearly lost their

0:21:46.640,0:21:52.640
house and I think that's why I went into property 
and finance is because your home is your Castle

0:21:52.640,0:21:59.480
it's what makes me feel safe so from you know that 
age I was like I wanted this big house relate yeah

0:21:59.480,0:22:05.040
you know I wanted a big house where I would feel 
safe you know it's your nest yeah it's your nest

0:22:05.040,0:22:10.320
and and I think that that's where I think that's 
where my skill set comes in my job because I've

0:22:10.320,0:22:16.920
had that trauma so what's going through your head 
at that point your divorc this is never happening

0:22:16.920,0:22:24.160
to me um so I waited till a lot later in life to 
have children till I was financially secure um

0:22:24.160,0:22:29.280
also you know that's the reason for me setting up 
my businesses in property and F fin ances to make

0:22:29.280,0:22:34.880
sure that I was Secure make sure that every single 
one of my clients never went through that process

0:22:34.880,0:22:42.040
of you know not having anything and you've got a 
personal reason yeah and and Trauma in a way that

0:22:42.040,0:22:48.280
you've taken to become something positive that's 
driving you I think also ethically morally your

0:22:48.280,0:22:53.600
values are in the right place yeah so I thought 
by setting up all these businesses you know then

0:22:53.600,0:22:58.840
I would never go through the financial 
crisis that my parents went through um

0:22:58.840,0:23:05.560
and so sadly I had to hire help in therapy to stop 
me from setting up businesses because that's all

0:23:05.560,0:23:10.240
I'd ever know it became a thing yeah it became 
an addiction it became an addiction it became

0:23:10.240,0:23:15.200
an addiction because like when you when you've 
experienced that you never want to go through

0:23:15.200,0:23:20.320
that again so my thing was the only thing I knew 
and and I am really good at making money you know

0:23:20.320,0:23:25.600
so my thing was make money make money make money 
it will problems it will solve problems and make

0:23:25.600,0:23:31.880
me feel safe you know and now getting off that 
treadmill you know and actually I thought if I

0:23:31.880,0:23:35.960
get off this treadmill then I'm not going to 
be successful anymore no one will think I'm

0:23:35.960,0:23:41.280
successful of I don't set up another business you 
know and actually then learning that that actually

0:23:41.280,0:23:45.600
I think since doing that and getting off that 
treadmill and not setting up any more businesses

0:23:45.600,0:23:50.360
I'm focusing on the businesses that I've got I 
think I've become more successful so let's what

0:23:50.360,0:23:57.360
businesses do you have let's list them so yeah so 
I've got a um estate agency right a letting agency

0:23:57.360,0:24:02.600
um a commercial mortgage brokerage a Residential 
Mortgage brokerage an insurance brokerage and

0:24:02.600,0:24:09.520
then I've got a um portfolio so property portfolio 
Building Company where you know I would build buy

0:24:09.520,0:24:17.560
you 10 houses and completely manage them for you 
that's insane that's just crazy so what qualities

0:24:17.560,0:24:23.880
what essential qualities do you need to possess 
to be able to run a business successfully do you

0:24:23.880,0:24:29.240
think I think number one is the passion for it so 
you can see you know with my businesses it's the

0:24:29.240,0:24:34.200
passion to get you to own your own home cuz that's 
what made me feel safe and I know it'll make you

0:24:34.200,0:24:40.440
feel safe um but so so having the passion for it 
there's absolutely no point in running a business

0:24:40.440,0:24:44.640
drives you the energy unless you are passionate 
about it because there's going to be so many down

0:24:44.640,0:24:49.440
times so as long as you've got that you know the 
passion for what you're doing whether it's you

0:24:49.440,0:24:56.760
know hairdressing or makeup artist or photography 
if you love it and you're willing to put your all

0:24:56.760,0:25:03.680
into it then you're going to be success uccessful 
have you ever experienced a situation um over the

0:25:03.680,0:25:09.040
years running your your own businesses where being 
a woman has actually proven to be a hindrance in

0:25:09.040,0:25:16.440
any way have you found that do you know what 
I've been super lucky I was um I had like one

0:25:16.440,0:25:22.720
job before I set up my own businesses and that was 
in a completely male dominated industry what was

0:25:22.720,0:25:28.360
it what it was a roofing company and I'm still 
they're still my family to this day so actually

0:25:28.360,0:25:35.520
they held me in such high regard that my journey 
into entrepreneurialism was actually really good

0:25:35.520,0:25:42.040
because I was a well-respected very young female 
um I was almost like the most respected in that

0:25:42.040,0:25:49.160
business at such a young age that gave me a bit 
of a false um economy when it came to business so

0:25:49.160,0:25:55.040
when I moved into running my own business apart 
from people would walk into my office especially

0:25:55.040,0:26:01.960
older men yeah and not take me seriously initially 
ini how did you know they weren't taking you

0:26:01.960,0:26:06.720
seriously just the questions that they'd ask and 
they'd almost what like just silly things just

0:26:06.720,0:26:13.080
testing your knowledge so I've had yeah I've had 
a lot of men over the years that have basically

0:26:13.080,0:26:18.160
gone you need to prove that you know what you're 
talking about but the minute then you know what

0:26:18.160,0:26:25.240
you're talking about and knowledge is power then 
that all seem to drop but I've been quite lucky I

0:26:25.240,0:26:32.320
think it's because you know I don't yeah I haven't 
really put up with it so the minute I clock that

0:26:32.320,0:26:36.680
you don't think I know what I'm talking about 
or you might be thinking I've got daughters or

0:26:36.680,0:26:43.480
granddaughters your age I literally turn it on so 
much that they would then in two minutes know so

0:26:43.480,0:26:49.080
it's not really lucky it's not really lucky and 
I love the way that you you again you're coming

0:26:49.080,0:26:54.760
at this from a position of control in a positive 
way you are controlling the narrative and you see

0:26:54.760,0:26:59.760
someone and they not really taking you seriously 
and you take you understand that you're aware of

0:26:59.760,0:27:03.720
it and then you turn it around you're controlling 
that conversation and also you can't play the

0:27:03.720,0:27:10.240
victim no I don't ever play the victim you know 
that is that's on them so their thought process

0:27:10.240,0:27:16.160
being oh come on what does Michelle know it I've 
always loved sales anyway yeah and I've always

0:27:16.160,0:27:24.040
love proving you wrong yes so the minute I clock 
that you think that you know I'm not you know as

0:27:24.040,0:27:29.800
you think I'm not good or whatever or I don't 
know what I'm talking about oh literally I take

0:27:29.800,0:27:35.840
pleasure out of making you realize that I do know 
what I'm talking about and that I'm a formidable

0:27:35.840,0:27:41.400
business person I had and don't ever underestimate 
me you know and um that's it I had a similar

0:27:41.400,0:27:47.240
situation in the IT industry yeah where I started 
off in telecommunications and billing and Analysis

0:27:47.240,0:27:52.920
and all these things and I walked into the office 
and it was literally 99% male consultants and um I

0:27:52.920,0:27:58.920
walk in there and uh and it's like well you don't 
look like an IT person you don't talk like an IT

0:27:58.920,0:28:03.880
person what do you know about it and that's when 
also the serious mode comes in right I'll show

0:28:03.880,0:28:08.840
you yeah I'll show you and then and then they 
they quickly learn don't they who they dealing

0:28:08.840,0:28:13.360
with I don't really get upset about it if it's a 
male or woman because I think anyone's going to

0:28:13.360,0:28:16.680
have their backup if you asking them you know 
if you trying to convince them to buy a car

0:28:16.680,0:28:22.040
or whatever oh I don't why would I want that car 
it's the same thing I maybe I think women do get

0:28:22.040,0:28:28.120
it a little bit hard especially in male dominated 
Industries like you know talk about Roofing con

0:28:29.600,0:28:36.240
it that's fair um you have to work a little 
bit harder maybe yeah I think less now because

0:28:36.240,0:28:41.200
obviously we're a bit more out there um and 
people T are taking us a bit more seriously

0:28:41.200,0:28:45.920
but I've always loved it I've always loved I've 
always taking advantage of being the only female

0:28:45.920,0:28:51.800
in the room you know I got a lot of business by 
doing that sort of many years ago or you know

0:28:51.800,0:28:58.360
people then will notice you because you're not 
in a gray suit um so you know now I think that

0:28:58.360,0:29:03.240
yeah I think it's slightly easier for women 
now but I've never seen it as a disadvantage

0:29:03.240,0:29:09.760
I've always seen it as a challenge what about the 
gender gap persistent gender wage Gap that we've

0:29:09.760,0:29:16.320
got going on yeah I mean running my own business 
I've never really experien that in a professional

0:29:16.320,0:29:21.840
capacity because I've you know I've had pretty 
much one job and to be fair he overpaid me I

0:29:21.840,0:29:28.400
wasn't he was paying me way more money than I was 
actually worth at the time so personally I've not

0:29:28.400,0:29:33.600
experienced it but obviously from what I've 
seen and heard in the Press um I don't agree

0:29:33.600,0:29:38.720
with it you know it's that women you know we 
shouldn't be seen as women and men we should

0:29:38.720,0:29:45.240
be seen as you know can you do the job can you 
deliver irrelevant of who you are and I think

0:29:45.240,0:29:50.000
women you know I've seen this in Consulting in the 
corporate world of Consulting you know there's a

0:29:50.000,0:29:55.680
floor full of consultants and the men are earning 
basically double what the women are earning same

0:29:55.680,0:30:01.680
job same everything and I think looking into it a 
bit more I'm quite analytical about these things

0:30:01.680,0:30:08.360
and I'm I've noticed that women aren't asking for 
as much money as men men are more confident even

0:30:08.360,0:30:14.200
though some of them might have even less skills 
let's say or even the same even the same um women

0:30:14.200,0:30:19.400
aren't asking for as much as men because they 
feel oh I'm not quite ready they're perfectionists

0:30:19.400,0:30:23.000
they're kind of thinking you know I need to get 
into the job then I'll ask for more whereas men

0:30:23.000,0:30:28.360
are more a little bit more gutsy in that way 
and I think women need to stop that yeah and

0:30:28.360,0:30:34.480
high and you'll be surprised you get it but also 
companies shouldn't be even waiting for them to

0:30:34.480,0:30:41.760
ask in my opinion you know I think people talk 
I in a corporate world you know you you might be

0:30:41.760,0:30:46.800
a female you might be sitting next to a male like 
companies need to take responsibility here and go

0:30:46.800,0:30:52.600
irrelevant of gender that is the pay they do ask 
they do ask and there's also a negotiation that

0:30:52.600,0:30:56.560
goes on because then they might present a salary 
and then you can go well I you know I'm definitely

0:30:56.560,0:31:01.600
worth more than that because of and this and men 
are more likely to negotiate I think or they have

0:31:01.600,0:31:07.600
been traditionally and I think women just need to 
take that position of power and go well actually I

0:31:07.600,0:31:13.240
am worth that and I want to I'm going to negotiate 
this because I feel like I deserve that but I do

0:31:13.240,0:31:18.680
think it is um employers responsibilities as well 
like I know my husband has a very large business

0:31:18.680,0:31:25.480
and I know that he you know the role is the role 
and it is Benchmark paid and irrelevant of whether

0:31:25.480,0:31:28.920
you're male or female it's what you're bringing 
to the table and he's really good at you know he

0:31:28.920,0:31:33.960
doesn't have any gender pay issues in his business 
and that's where I think you know companies do

0:31:33.960,0:31:39.120
need to look at their own policies and and paid 
have a look have a look and just make sure that

0:31:39.120,0:31:44.600
everyone everyone on the same level whether 
irrelevant of of gender is paid you know the

0:31:44.600,0:31:51.760
same but yeah that's women not um you know like 
you said not asking and and possibly believing

0:31:51.760,0:31:56.360
that they're worth it which again is another thing 
where we have to instill more confidence and this

0:31:56.360,0:32:02.960
is this is the the that I'm on at the moment is 
you know I've never necessarily suffered with you

0:32:02.960,0:32:08.320
know a lack of confidence if anything I'm probably 
slightly overconfident sometimes but it's about

0:32:08.320,0:32:15.600
that can be taught I have taught so many women in 
my business to be at the Forefront to you know be

0:32:15.600,0:32:21.240
open and I think people misunderstand confidence 
for arrogance and there's a very fine line but

0:32:21.240,0:32:28.320
actually it can be taught um you know so that you 
do speak up this stuff works yeah this actually

0:32:28.320,0:32:33.320
works people like the confidence I think and 
actually if you fight you shouldn't have to fight

0:32:33.320,0:32:38.600
for what you're worth but at the same time you 
know people do like the directness and actually if

0:32:38.600,0:32:43.200
you're saying that you're worth it then you must 
be worth it you know but I think that I think a

0:32:43.200,0:32:49.600
lot of women struggle with that that's the journey 
I've been on with the females that I've employed

0:32:49.600,0:32:58.160
the amount of training and development that I 
spend on the confidence issues has been insane

0:32:58.160,0:33:02.960
years confidence issues for sure and this leads 
me into my next question which is the ongoing

0:33:02.960,0:33:07.520
debate about under representation of women in 
leadership positions that is something we're

0:33:07.520,0:33:13.200
still seeing today it is still a fact why why is 
this even happening again I think women just are

0:33:13.200,0:33:19.240
not putting themselves forward also it's the whole 
work life balance isn't it you know organizations

0:33:19.240,0:33:25.080
need to look at because because even myself and 
my my team you know a lot of my team are Ms um

0:33:25.080,0:33:33.440
it's about the what support is uh employ employers 
giving you know parents and still I'm not saying

0:33:33.440,0:33:39.520
that this is all the time but still it's a lot of 
mothers that want to spend a lot more time with

0:33:39.520,0:33:44.280
their children and I'm trying not to be sexist 
there but I certainly know out of myself and my

0:33:44.280,0:33:50.000
husband he loves spending time with our children 
but it's definitely me that wants to spend more

0:33:50.000,0:33:55.880
of the working day with my children you know so I 
can't vouch for everybody but that's in our family

0:33:55.880,0:34:02.080
that's definitely um the way goes and I think 
employers being flexible around that you know

0:34:02.080,0:34:08.040
and making sure that leadership positions offer 
some sort of flexibility I think you know going

0:34:08.040,0:34:12.480
back to The Apprentice I think my issue with 
the culture around that even though that's a

0:34:12.480,0:34:23.040
TV production I get it it's TV I don't really 
want to necessarily fuel or or or be part of

0:34:23.040,0:34:31.120
fulltime anything that takes that balance away 
anything that skews too much to the other side

0:34:31.120,0:34:36.480
where it's deliberate stress and it's deliberate 
no you can't see your family as if that's a good

0:34:36.480,0:34:41.640
thing even in the name of entertainment I mean 
what is the problem with picking up the phone

0:34:41.640,0:34:47.840
and talking to your kid for four minutes what is 
the problem I just don't feel that that's maybe I

0:34:47.840,0:34:52.720
understand that it's there to stress but anything 
that tips the balance like it becomes unnatural

0:34:52.720,0:34:59.160
and too unnecessarily high stress for me it's not 
something and I certainly wouldn't want to work

0:34:59.160,0:35:05.800
with anyone long term that has that mindset yeah 
and I think it wouldn't work at the point in time

0:35:05.800,0:35:11.920
where I was on the show yeah I was not in that 
present mindset with the children now I wouldn't

0:35:11.920,0:35:16.360
do the show there is something in that that 
there are these stereotypes and there's almost

0:35:16.360,0:35:22.040
two groups of women and either you're you know 
strong and tough and then you you know you labeled

0:35:22.040,0:35:30.840
unfair labeling or then you're maybe softer and 
a bit more meek and some ways dare I say you're

0:35:30.840,0:35:37.400
sexy or something God forbid then you're not taken 
seriously at all yeah um what do you think about

0:35:37.400,0:35:45.160
this I think the impression that people get of 
me is very they're super intimidated which I've

0:35:45.160,0:35:51.000
always found because I don't get labeled with the 
sexy yeah okay so so um so what labeling have you

0:35:51.000,0:35:57.920
have you received labeling I think I I think the 
whole intimidation so people think I'm up myself

0:35:57.920,0:36:03.560
because I think that's the label that someone 
who is portrayed to be successful is and it's

0:36:03.560,0:36:09.800
when you meet me that you actually go oh she's 
so normal you know and and actually so I think

0:36:09.800,0:36:16.280
the perception is very different to the the real 
me because I think again people you know if it

0:36:16.280,0:36:22.360
was a successful man you wouldn't think oh he's up 
himself you just think oh how successful he is how

0:36:22.360,0:36:28.760
wonderful but I think because a woman is driven 
you know you automatically this is the stigma that

0:36:28.760,0:36:35.560
I get attached with is that unless you know me you 
think that I'm up myself and I'm better than you

0:36:35.560,0:36:39.600
and you know which couldn't be further from the 
truth and I think that's sad I do think that's

0:36:39.600,0:36:48.960
sad whereas actually when I meet or see or admire 
a successful woman I I don't think those things I

0:36:48.960,0:36:54.520
think you know I'm in awe of you you like you know 
Oprah Winfrey I mean Oprah Winfrey doesn't come

0:36:54.520,0:36:59.840
across intimidating so you know she's probably the 
most successful businesswoman on the planet and

0:36:59.840,0:37:05.120
and I idolize her you know she's one of my Idols 
yes but she manages to do it in such a way where

0:37:05.120,0:37:11.040
it's humble and it's soft and it's she disarms 
yeah yeah she disarms and um you know so I'm

0:37:11.040,0:37:16.160
trying to work on that because a lot of the you 
know people who don't know me necessarily think

0:37:16.160,0:37:22.040
that you know I can be quite intimidating and I 
think that that's their perception of me rather

0:37:22.040,0:37:25.840
than actually when they do get to know me they go 
oh actually you're really quite funny and you're

0:37:25.840,0:37:31.560
friendly and you're you it's quite an interesting 
one because um it I suppose it depends on your

0:37:31.560,0:37:38.040
situation as well so maybe if there's you know 
some insecurities or you know then you feel a

0:37:38.040,0:37:43.280
bit like oh I don't you know yeah but if you're 
doing things yourself and also I think what women

0:37:43.280,0:37:50.200
need to realize what you can be inspired and you 
can be driven by another woman's success too you

0:37:50.200,0:37:54.640
know absolutely why don't you rub off on each 
other absolutely but I think go I think women

0:37:54.640,0:37:59.280
who are confident in I think you're absolutely 
right it comes from insecurity these so obviously

0:37:59.280,0:38:04.120
I meet I try and network with business women all 
the time and I'm a princess trust Ambassador so

0:38:04.120,0:38:10.520
I'm pretty much one of the only non-celebrities 
in the prince's trust ambassadorship and uh they

0:38:10.520,0:38:15.520
certainly don't think I'm intimidating because 
they're so successful you know and they don't

0:38:15.520,0:38:20.440
have I'm sure they got their own insecurities 
because haven't we all but um you know I think

0:38:20.440,0:38:25.000
it is I think it does come down to you know women 
who are really securing themselves they actually

0:38:25.000,0:38:29.840
you know they go what can I learn from also I'm 
doing the same thing you know you always want to

0:38:29.840,0:38:37.560
be in a room where you're yeah you lift it up and 
you pull together and I love meeting I mean I have

0:38:37.560,0:38:42.800
a the EMP parag entrepreneur where I do networking 
um for business women and that is purely to get

0:38:42.800,0:38:49.880
in a room with like-minded women like myself so 
you can all sort of you know um help each other

0:38:49.880,0:38:54.680
lift each other up support each other and I think 
these kind of podcasts and getting out there and

0:38:54.680,0:39:01.320
talking to women and normalizing a Confident 
Woman you know and seeing that as a very very

0:39:01.320,0:39:07.000
good thing is something that should be continuing 
yeah absolutely and this is why I'm on a bit of a

0:39:07.000,0:39:11.840
mission and a you know doing loads of PR immediate 
at the moment one because you know I've got

0:39:11.840,0:39:17.680
nothing to prove two I think by sharing my story 
particular around you know working with therapists

0:39:17.680,0:39:21.760
and psychologists that there should be no Stigma 
attached to it and actually it's only going to

0:39:21.760,0:39:27.920
benefit yourself and for any women out there that 
you know are working moms you know um whether

0:39:27.920,0:39:33.600
they're an employee or running their own business 
that actually you can do it you can you know still

0:39:33.600,0:39:38.720
be present if you work if you work on it you 
definitely can and have that work life balance

0:39:38.720,0:39:44.920
but still be super successful at the same time so 
you can be a mom and still run businesses and not

0:39:44.920,0:39:50.680
one of those always sort of above the other at 
some point in time I'm not saying I'm perfect

0:39:50.680,0:39:56.760
with it by any stretch but I'm getting there and 
I'm really learning to you know not beat myself up

0:39:56.760,0:40:03.400
about you know not being present sometimes or work 
taking a backseat sometimes do you have a quote or

0:40:03.400,0:40:10.320
anything that you look to that inspires you in any 
way that you can share um I think it's more about

0:40:10.320,0:40:14.680
you know money doesn't bring you success changing 
people's lives bring you success and it's Michelle

0:40:14.680,0:40:19.680
Obama said something along those lines don't 
totally quote me but she very much and I look

0:40:19.680,0:40:25.840
up to her I think she's an inspirational woman um 
and I think you know if you I think if you focus

0:40:25.840,0:40:31.680
on the money I I think that could be a little 
bit of a downfall I think if you focus on the

0:40:31.680,0:40:36.880
what change are you going to bring to someone's 
life I think the money will just come that that's

0:40:36.880,0:40:42.480
my that's the path I've always followed and and 
that is the path that I've been successful at

0:40:42.480,0:40:55.240
Michelle it's been amazing speaking to you than 
so much for coming today thanks so thank you

0:40:55.240,0:40:55.740
[Music]