Gavin Stone: Spy Secrets of Human Behaviour — Reading People, Power & the Animal Instincts of Influence

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Mr. Gavin Stones, you are a
total communications mind

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reader.
I could tell you something that

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you were holding back then from
when I said that I'm not going

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to.
I'm not.

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No, you've written a lot of
books.

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Your career.
You went from intelligence work

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to CEO.
In the intelligence world, I

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mean, some of my assignments,
one of my very, very first

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assignments, I was sat down and
they said to me, find out how

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the Russians are getting rail
and information out of Korea,

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speak to somebody, find
somebody, target them

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deliberately.
And then we have to talk them

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into doing something that's not
in their best interest, could

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get them killed or in prison for
life, or even their family

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killed or imprisoned, Ask them
to betray their country, commit

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treason and steal secret
information.

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There's two most important
things.

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And this is where the big
difference is between getting to

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know people, not just who they
are and their personality type,

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but how they want to be
perceived.

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Mr. Gavin Stone, you are a total
communications mind reader, body

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language expert.
Is is that like a good summary?

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Well, yeah, so it's it's one of
those things where people say to

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me also, you're a body language
expert and say, yeah, and they

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follow their arms.
So what am I thinking?

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Yeah, I'm trying not to do
anything.

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You see, I'm just.
People do that.

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There's.
No, no, no.

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I'm actually happy for you to to
read my body language as well,

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because I also want to improve
as a podcaster.

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We all want to improve.
And if there's something that

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I'm doing that you feel I could
improve, please tell me.

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No, I'm scared, I'm scared, I'm
scared.

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But yes, you bring your skills
to governments, to boardrooms,

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to negotiations.
You train people, you've written

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a lot of books and yeah, you've
got knowledge that people can

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definitely benefit from because
we aren't as self aware as we'd

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like to think we are.
And it's only when you see

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yourself on camera, like as a
third parties of looking, and

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then you realize, do I really
behave like that?

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Am I really speaking like that?
And because you might think

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something in your mind, you
might think or maybe the

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conversation is going flat or
something like that.

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But then, that's not always what
you think in your mind is not

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always what translates to how
the world observes you.

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Funnily enough, part of our
training when we, when we did

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the, the bit on deception
detection, not only do we have

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to learn to read other people
and we're learning all about

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going to their tells when we go
through it's, I suppose it's

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kind of like an interview very
much like this where you set up

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with someone, all the cameras
are on you and afterwards they

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give you the recording and they
say, right, watch it back

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because you're the only one who
knows when you're lying.

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So therefore you need to learn
your own tells.

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And when you learn your own
tells, you can not only suppress

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them a little when you're when
you know you're being deceitful,

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but at the same time you can
also pepper them in another part

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when you're being truthful.
OK, 'cause I was gonna say, why

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are you training yourself to be
more deceitful then?

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So if if you imagine working in
the world of intelligence,

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sometimes you have to work.
Oh, you have to, but for the

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greater.
Good.

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Yeah.
So there's loads and loads of

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reasons that you might be
playing a role, for example, and

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the Ministry of Defence and the
intelligence agencies all around

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that, they love role play.
And you, you know, you cannot

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break cover, but you know, at
any expense you must be able to,

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to kind of continue down that
path.

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And and therefore it's important
that you learn what your tells

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are so as that you don't mess up
in the middle of something and

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and it has been done many times.
Oh wow, I didn't.

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I literally never thought about
it from this angle.

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I, I don't consider myself a
very good liar, so I just, if

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there's something I don't want
to say, I just, I know that if I

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lie about it, it's going to be
terrible, so I'd avoid saying

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it.
That's how I I'm aware enough to

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know that, so I think don't even
go there.

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The problem is if someone asks
me directly.

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Yep, a lot of people tend to do
that.

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That kind of silent breakaway
from.

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Every breakaway but.
That can be in itself can be a

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tell, you know, and I've seen
it, you know, if you can't have

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imagine maybe it's a house share
and you've got four or five

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people living in the house and
somebody comes running

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downstairs from the bathroom and
they go who used all my shampoo?

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And three of the four people in
the room say it wasn't me, it

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wasn't me, it wasn't me.
But one of them say like that.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That then, you know, you know,

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it's them.
And it sounds obvious when it's

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put in a scenario like that.
But that that comes from the the

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the fight freeze or flight
response that so many people

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have.
And of course, you know, the

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natural instinct is to kind of
freeze, you know, saying

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nothing, keep still, don't look,
don't make eye contact.

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And hopefully the threat goes
away.

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Well, you think these things, so
we're going to let's let's just

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bust some of these.
So what is the biggest body

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language myth out there?
That one thing equals one

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thought.
So for example, people turn

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around and say, I could tell you
a line because you had your arm

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solved it.
Well, that's complete.

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Not a real issue.
Yeah, there's there's no one

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thing that gives away a thought
or an action or or anything

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else.
It's what you're looking for is

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clusters.
So if you're looking for

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somebody who you, you're not
sure if they're being deceitful

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and they give you 3 or more
clusters of, of body language

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tells.
So if they pull their feet in

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while they fold their arms while
they look down, their blink rate

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goes up.
You know, their, their voice

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tone changes, you get clunky
speech.

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There's so many different flags
you can look for.

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And I generally say you know,
any less than 3, then discount

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it entirely 3 or more.
That's when you need to start

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asking.
Questions.

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But if you don't know someone,
you don't know what their

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emotional base is, so it's very
hard to read.

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I suppose you're getting to know
them, yes.

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Yeah, you have to baseline each
and every person 1st.

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And that, that's the part that's
the the bit that's misunderstood

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more than anything.
Because even though body

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language in itself is a
language, it's also something

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that you have to learn it each
and every time with each person.

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And establishing a baseline is
all well and good, but you have

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to also understand that that
baseline can also deviate too.

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Somebody's normal behavior when
you baseline them in their home

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is going to be different to that
in the course of law.

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It's going to be different to
when they're drinking with their

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friends.
It's going to be different at

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work.
It's going to be different their

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parents and they'll have
different baselines for all

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these different scenarios and
situations.

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So you have to, you know,
baseline them according to the

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environment and the situation,
and then wow.

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So to be a really good body
language expert, you've got to

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be highly analytical.
Yeah.

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And it's exhausting as well.
So it's something that, you

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know, you can kind of learn to
be more, you know, kind of aware

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of it, but at the same time,
sometimes you just want to

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switch it off and just say
that's it.

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I just want to walk around with
the blinkers on at the moment

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and take no notice.
OK, yeah, because because you

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know, to pick these things up,
you're trying not to pick them

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up.
OK, so if you only had 60

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seconds to teach someone 1 trick
to read people better, what

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would that be?
For reading people better, I'd

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probably say blink right?
This is one that really goes

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underrated.
I know your eyes never.

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So what it does, people's
people's blink rate changes

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dependent upon stress, and
that's the amount of blinks per

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minute.
So if you can imagine somebody

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who's watching the film or
reading a book or concentrating

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or listening intently, their
blink rate is very, very low.

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Maybe one, maybe even 2A minute.
If somebody is in a high stress

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situation, their blink rate is
going to be a lot more.

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And that can be, you know, kind
of even up to 90 blinks per

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minute.
So what you do, just count it

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over 6 seconds, multiply it by
10.

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You're not counting the blinker
arena.

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Yeah, that's why I think you
feel overwhelmed.

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But yeah, blinkerate would be a
good one.

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There's a lot in the eyes, yeah.
And breath location as well, you

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know, just whether somebody's
chest breathing or belly

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breathing tells you a lot.
So yeah.

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That chest breathing or belly?
So chest breathing is nerves.

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More people are kind of, and it
doesn't necessarily mean nerves.

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It could be excitement, it could
be a number of things, but

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generally people are more
relaxed when they're belly

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breathing in in comparison to
when they're chest breathing.

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OK, OK.
So in terms of your your career,

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you went from intelligence work
to CEOs and the interest is

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what's the difference from spies
to to bored dreams?

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Like how?
How was that?

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Well, they like anybody in
charge of anything.

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They want answers, you know, so
it's something like when I did

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my work, it was very simply a
case of this is what we want to

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find out, go and do it.
And then you get to CEOs and

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they want answers of why isn't
my company working?

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Why should, why am I not making
more?

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Why is my competitor doing
things or quicker market than

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me, whatever the questions may
be.

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And what I'll do is I'll go in
and I'll look at the overall

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situation.
I'll be able to kind of say, all

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right, this is how we can amend
this or this is a way we can.

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Find overall sorry situation.
Do you mean with them or how

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they are in there?
How they interact with people

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it.
Could be any number of things,

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so it would all depend entirely
on what the questions are the

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CEO wants the answer to to
start.

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OK, so it might be why is my
team not engaging with me?

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Or why?
Why am I asking for one thing

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and getting another?
On the other hand, it might be

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why do my competitors come out
with a the same product as me

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six months before I do?
And so, you know, entirely

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dependent upon what they want is
wearable, then go in and kind of

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get the answers for them.
Gosh, so you go into these

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companies and in a very
intelligence full on way, you

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analyze that in great detail and
you'll take different people

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into the room and you'll ask
them questions.

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And I mean, is it like a proper
interrogation?

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I don't know like.
How so?

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Interrogation.
Interrogation.

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A lot of people see that as like
kind of waterboarding.

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People are not going to.
It's not anything.

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Like that, you know it's.
That most of the time it's just

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a conversation and I can
generally spend within 2030

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minutes of somebody being able
to tell enough about them to to

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know more about who they are and
how they want to be perceived.

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God, I'm scared.
I'm scared.

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I'm scared and excited at the
same time.

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No, but that's fascinating.
I would love to.

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It's, it's really a cool thing.
I think it's a scary thing, but

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it's a thrilling thing, I think,
to find out how people see you.

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And even if there's negative
things, it's cool to know them

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because you can you can work on
them.

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And then it's also cool to know
the positive things, which might

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help you build your confidence.
So either way, you win.

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Oh yeah, I think.
So and the the more you get to

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know people, the better it is
all around.

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Even with these companies, when
I explain to them when it comes

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to even things like marketing,
for example, yes, and and

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they'll say, oh, we know our
customer and I'll say, no, you

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don't.
You know what worked in your

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last marketing campaign, But
just because you know what works

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doesn't mean to say you know how
or why it worked.

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Could you repeat that with a
completely different product or

227
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,400
a completely different company
and have the same results and

228
00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:13,760
they go, well, I, I don't know
and say, well, in that case, you

229
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,840
don't know your customer, you
don't know why it worked.

230
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,640
All you know is that something
worked.

231
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,440
And was it just a case of split
testing so many things until

232
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,680
eventually you, you hit the
jackpot, You know, so getting to

233
00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:26,760
know people is the most
important thing.

234
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,880
And, and once you strip back all
the fluff that's out there and

235
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,760
get to know there's two most
important things.

236
00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,240
And this is where the big
difference is between getting to

237
00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,600
know people, not just who they
are and their personality type,

238
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,080
but how they want to be
perceived.

239
00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:43,080
Oh.
Stop it.

240
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,600
That's profound.
It really is something that's

241
00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:46,960
profound.
That.

242
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,840
They're they're what they're
projecting and who they really

243
00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,160
are are generally millions of
miles away from each other.

244
00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:58,760
Now we we this is.
This is so cool.

245
00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:04,680
OK, so when you're negotiating,
what non verbal cues give away

246
00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:09,080
something that someone's
overselling like they're trying

247
00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:10,680
to try hard?
So I don't know.

248
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,240
I've changed my mind about three
times with this one.

249
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,160
OK, it'll all depend on the
stakes, I suppose.

250
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,440
And I, I kind of went down the
road of the typical cheesy

251
00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,560
grinning car salesman who's very
kind of touching and tapping you

252
00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:24,920
on the shoulders and that kind
of thing.

253
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,640
And yeah, and that's, that's the
that's the one that for me.

254
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:30,200
Trying too hard?
Sort of.

255
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,680
Yeah, they don't need to be
verbally pushy, but they just

256
00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:37,200
you, you know that 10 minutes
after you've left the room,

257
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,120
they've forgotten your name
because they're now doing

258
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:40,840
exactly the same thing with the
next customer.

259
00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:45,080
And that's where if you actually
get to know your customer

260
00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:49,080
properly on a completely
different level, you will lose

261
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,400
that naturally and and kind of
have a completely different

262
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,080
result.
Yeah.

263
00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,160
But all they in the car sales
room trying to get there, get to

264
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,240
know, Yeah, it's a it's a tricky
1, isn't it?

265
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,040
Yeah.
And of course, car salesman,

266
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,040
again, it it is a numbers game
where they've been doing it for

267
00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,560
so many years and that they're
doing they're doing what they've

268
00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:12,240
always known because they've
been taught and told by other

269
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,760
people that worked or this is
how you sell something.

270
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:16,600
Yeah, a lot of the time it's not
the case.

271
00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:18,400
You know, again, you're getting
to know people.

272
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,320
And if you've got somebody, for
example, who projects themselves

273
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:27,720
as a strength and power type
personality and you're trying to

274
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,400
sell to them using empathy,
you're not going to sell.

275
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,760
You know, you need to say, look,
this, this, this 4x4, you're

276
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,680
going to make you seen as being
strong and powerful.

277
00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:39,960
And, and, you know, the, the,
the big man on, on the road and

278
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,360
then you're going to, you know,
kind of give him what he needs,

279
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,200
the dopamine rush he needs to,
to, to go towards the decision

280
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,640
you want him to make.
At the same time, if you've got

281
00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,640
somebody who is an acceptance
person and they want to be

282
00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:57,520
accepted into, you know, society
more than you need to go down

283
00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:59,480
the road and say, look, you
know, once you buy this car,

284
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,160
you're going to be in the owners
club and you're going to be

285
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,480
you're one of the family of
these car kind of people that

286
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,080
and you so you're selling them
the dream, but you're selling to

287
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,840
their identity, and that's where
it all changes.

288
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,800
You know, my first job that I
ever did was actually as a

289
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:24,760
student and I had to sell
alcohol in an alcohol store and

290
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,040
a liquor store, and I had to
sell Southern Comfort.

291
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,880
And it was, I don't know if you
know Southern Comfort.

292
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:31,520
I do.
You do.

293
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,200
I've had plenty of it do.
You like it?

294
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:34,280
I do, yeah.
Yeah.

295
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,800
I don't.
I really don't like it, although

296
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,520
it just sort of tastes terrible
and I'm a terrible liar.

297
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,200
So I thought, what am I going to
do now?

298
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,200
But yeah, you kind of, you see
the people and then you you sort

299
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,760
of think, well, how can I break?
First of all, I've got a problem

300
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:51,280
with myself now because I'm a
terrible.

301
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,440
I can't tell you.
It's delicious when it's not.

302
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,120
And then so you have to work
through that.

303
00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,360
And then also you've got it with
sales.

304
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,480
And that's when I thought, I
actually like the challenge of

305
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,480
trying to find out about this
person and, and, and maybe step

306
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,280
into their life and offer them
something.

307
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,520
So if they're like, you know,
inside like a braise, you know,

308
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:15,920
having a bra, it's a barbecue.
And they say, OK, well, you can.

309
00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,520
And then I also said to the to
the guy that likes a piece, help

310
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,240
me, give me something to make
this thing.

311
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,560
Can we not put an umbrella, put
some juice and crushed ice?

312
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,400
Help me, help me.
And then, you know, you make

313
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,800
this little thing, you make a
product out of it that that

314
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,000
actually now it tastes all
right.

315
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:30,800
It's actually quite nice.
And you can have this at the

316
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,480
barbecue and you sell them the
vision.

317
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,920
And there is this thing if you
have, if you're able to go into

318
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,520
someone's mind and then show
them, you know, go in there and

319
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,680
almost like have that experience
with them of sharing this drink

320
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,920
and you're having it together
and then that translates to a

321
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,560
sale.
That's an incredible experience

322
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:51,720
all round, I think.
Yeah.

323
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,240
And it works well with because
the majority of people are

324
00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,880
visual people.
So if you can get them to kind

325
00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,200
of see what you want them to see
and and in their mind, they will

326
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,800
create it how they want it to
be.

327
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,400
Yeah.
So whether it's a fire pit or a

328
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,880
bar, because the details are
irrelevant, they will edit it in

329
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:07,400
their mind.
And when once you've got them

330
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,280
down that that route, as it
were, the rest is just about

331
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,720
kind of, you know, the, the
final push of how many bottles

332
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,000
do you want?
But there's a way you could take

333
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,480
that even further.
And this is where if you look at

334
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:28,680
certain products in comparison
to others, some products sell a

335
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,840
label and other products sell an
identity.

336
00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,920
So, for example, if you're
buying a Harley-Davidson, you

337
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,280
then identify yourself as a
Harley-Davidson rider.

338
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,520
You know, people have
Harley-Davidson patches and

339
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,240
tattoos and all sorts of things.
They're by the posters and the

340
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,640
merchandise.
But you don't see very many

341
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,360
people having a Peugeot moped
tattoo because you.

342
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,160
Know it's a product.
Yeah, you know, you get, you get

343
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:54,800
exactly the same thing with so
many things.

344
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,920
You, especially with things like
phones, you know, this is, I'm

345
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,840
an Android user or I'm an Apple
user because they're that that's

346
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,640
who they are.
That's who they see themselves

347
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,359
as.
It's part of their identity.

348
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,440
Now, not just a product,
everything else in the world is

349
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,599
a product, but certain very
clever companies are selling the

350
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,680
identity.
And of course, if you've got

351
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,520
your bourbon drinker and you're
trying to sell them Southern

352
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,680
Comfort, you don't have to lie.
You can just turn around and say

353
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,079
something along the lines of,
look, I'm not a bourbon expert,

354
00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:25,040
but I can clearly tell you or
somebody who knows quality when

355
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,680
you see it.
Why won't you, you know, would

356
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,760
you, would you take a sample of
this and you should be able to

357
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,080
know instantly that this is a
next level quality bourbon and

358
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,600
give them a sample.
And of course, you know, you,

359
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,520
you, you play on their identity
and say, if you're the expert, I

360
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,640
perceive you as being, then
obviously you'll know this is

361
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,040
that's yeah.
And and you've built the story.

362
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,360
Then I'm going to back out to
them and say I'm not an expert

363
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:51,640
or on, especially when you've
kind of LED them down the path

364
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,640
of of building up their ego.
You must know that they're the

365
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,200
expert.
Then you better have that right

366
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,120
if they're in.
A liquor store looking for

367
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:01,800
whiskeys, then you know, you
kind of you half the battles

368
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,360
done for you.
So, you know, it's, it's just

369
00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:08,040
about, you know, giving them
that final nudge towards the

370
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:12,560
product you want them to have.
I was going to say how can a

371
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,200
leader learn to quickly read a
room?

372
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,240
But I'm not going to say leader.
I'm just going to say, how can a

373
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,680
person learn to read a room
quickly?

374
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,600
Anyone can do it in a boardroom
scenario or any other scenario

375
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,200
like that.
Ask a very difficult question on

376
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,280
watch where everyone's eyes go.
It's as simple as that.

377
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,080
So if you've got a, you know,
you're all sitting around a, you

378
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,280
know, a bold meeting table and
you ask the most awkward

379
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,880
question you can, the people
will look in the room for the

380
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,480
person they want comfort from.
Oh yeah, the one who?

381
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,880
They look in charge, you know,
and, and the person in charge is

382
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,760
not necessarily the person who
is highest in rank or the CEO,

383
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,520
but that's the person that they
will go to to say what's the

384
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,760
answer to this?
Or people do exactly the same

385
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:59,520
things with jokes and humor.
If if ever you want to know if

386
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,320
somebody is interested in you,
you need to tell a funny joke.

387
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,680
And people, when they laugh,
they always look at the person

388
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,640
they like the most before they
actually start laughing.

389
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,000
So or or while they're laughing.
Oh my gosh, I'm gonna be

390
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,960
analyzing now.
So they do that because it's

391
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,640
kind of it's almost like a
social consent to say how how

392
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,360
much do we laugh at this do?
You find this.

393
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:21,120
Funny because if you don't, I'm
gonna stop laughing.

394
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,040
But if you do, I can laugh more.
And, and it's, it's kind of a if

395
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,560
the person you like is laughing
quite hard, it's a social

396
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,880
license thing to say, Oh, I can
laugh really hard at this as

397
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,320
well.
And it looks like something, a

398
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,000
bonding moment where we're both
kind of laughing together.

399
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:39,000
So when I say like this doesn't
necessarily need to be sexual

400
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:40,960
attraction.
It can be, you know, just just,

401
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,640
you know, blokes in a room just
looking at each other and

402
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:44,840
they'll, they'll look at the one
that.

403
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:48,840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kind of have that have that

404
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,200
shared moment I.
Think in general, if you like

405
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,360
someone, you look at them and
you avoid eye contact if you

406
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:56,320
don't right it.
Depends on the situation.

407
00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,560
So again, I don't, I don't want
to go down the route too much of

408
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:05,600
sexual attraction, but that can
vary so much, especially if it's

409
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,120
somebody, and this is by no
means sexist, but if you've got

410
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:12,280
a female, it's just for an
example who's having a bad hair

411
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,760
day and you know, their makeup's
not quite how they wanted to be.

412
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,600
And maybe they've got a spot,
whatever, and the person that

413
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,400
they really like.
Like walks into the room.

414
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:22,440
It's very much the ostrich
effective.

415
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:23,920
If I can't see him, he can't see
me.

416
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,000
So they might avoid contact and
carry on working.

417
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,600
So, yeah, yeah.
Just out of self consciousness

418
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,080
yeah again, you know OK, there
are so many variations of

419
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,520
situations that I don't like to
put you know, A1 size fits all

420
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,360
when it comes to body language
It's because I.

421
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:42,160
Have always thought, but I mean
not not relationship stuff

422
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:46,120
really like in a sexual sense,
not that, but like in general

423
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:49,720
people, you know, just two
people when they work together.

424
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,560
I think if there is more eye
contact, they're more.

425
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,000
They like each other more just
as as people and if they're

426
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:57,840
less.
Yeah, especially if it's

427
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,040
prolonged.
On that's what I found.

428
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,520
Yeah, if, if, If it's prolonged,
then even more so.

429
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:08,600
OK, OK, so what's 1 body
language mistake that instantly

430
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,120
weakens your credibility, your
authority?

431
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:18,320
Quick movement so if you if you
think of the animal world and if

432
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,600
you look at the predators like a
big tiger that kind of paces

433
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,760
through the jungle very kind of,
you know, steady controlled

434
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,640
movements and you know and if
you then compare that to that of

435
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,480
prey instead of the predator
and.

436
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,760
They're.
Very looking around and.

437
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,840
Very erotic.
Yeah, so, so of course they're

438
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,160
the other headlines are all I
was darting around and that

439
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:41,520
kind.
Of they're actually true.

440
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,880
So if you want to to come across
as somebody who's kind of weak,

441
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,880
then that was very quick, rapid,
quick fire, sharp, snappy

442
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,640
movement, OK.
What happens if you're a

443
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,240
cheater?
If you're a cheater then you sit

444
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,680
there with your paws crossed and
you say I already know I'm the

445
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,080
fastest, I don't need to.
Run, yeah.

446
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,280
But when you do run, when you do
run, you run.

447
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:00,920
Then you give it.
Yeah.

448
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,000
I love looking into the animal
Kingdom for cues on behavior.

449
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,360
And I kind of see, I sometimes
see us, you know, we are

450
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:08,920
animals.
But I really do see it.

451
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:10,400
It's almost like I've grown up
South Africa.

452
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,400
So I think of the jungle a lot,
you know, and people having the

453
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,200
territories like a lion and then
you've got the lionesses and

454
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,760
they're guarding.
And if another lion dares go in

455
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,440
and take those resources.
And there's the big argument,

456
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,400
you know, and then there's rank
and all that.

457
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,640
It's it's just everyone
protective of their little slice

458
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,040
of whatever it is they've got.
And like I see a corporate work

459
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:32,080
environment is that.
It's.

460
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,840
Totally the same, isn't it?
If you want to know, if you want

461
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,680
to get really, really good at
body language and the two things

462
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:43,640
you should watch are animals and
children, because animals are

463
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,640
great because they, you know
you, you can see when an animal

464
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,000
is relaxed or not purely by how
they hold themselves.

465
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,720
We've got this great big
vulnerable area.

466
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,720
And when we are feeling
vulnerable, we'll cover it up.

467
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,600
We'll fold our arms, we'll pull
a pushing in, or we'll.

468
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,960
Yeah, we'll go small.
In the way, yeah, we'll shrink

469
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,640
down, we'll do our.
I saw you sitting like this, so

470
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,040
you must be very.
Comfortable are you usually a

471
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:09,960
bigger, bigger giveaway is
actually the feet.

472
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,520
So if your feet are like kind of
right out there, then you're

473
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:13,440
really relaxed.
You're.

474
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,360
Tucked.
Right under the chair then.

475
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,200
Well, I'm doing my microphone
madness.

476
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:18,160
OK.
Yeah.

477
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,040
Well, similar kind of thing, so,
but yeah.

478
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,200
Confident.
It's it's still something that

479
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,400
you know the the kind of fatal
position of curling up is

480
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,680
generally.
Any smaller and like this and.

481
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,120
Yeah and if somebody's more
confident then there will be

482
00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:36,040
wider and taking up space and
you know the the this man

483
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,640
spreading thing has been doing
the the rounds now I.

484
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,280
Found myself doing.
I went, I had a guest here just

485
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,480
before who we won't say it now,
but yes.

486
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,200
And there was something that the
guest said and it made it really

487
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,720
affected me.
Like I was really sad and like,

488
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:51,760
totally, like I've taken
shocked.

489
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,720
And I just found myself just,
yeah, I went like this.

490
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,520
And then I was like, oh, you've
got your hand in front of your

491
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,440
face at the bottom.
But yeah, I felt it.

492
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,480
Just you.
Know that shows the the level of

493
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,760
empathy that you have as so you
you're not just listening to

494
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,680
what's being said, you're
actually processing it as if

495
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,520
you're almost.
Living it, but it's very

496
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,000
distracting when you're
processing.

497
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,360
Things too much?
It's very distracting.

498
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:19,040
I've got to stick to the script
and I'll get taken off track.

499
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,920
OK, so when someone we spoke
about this a little bit,

500
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,920
someone's not saying anything at
all.

501
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,400
You ask them a question, they're
silent.

502
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:31,160
How do you interpret that then?
Again, depending on the

503
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,360
situation, if it is a scenario
like we talked about with the

504
00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:36,560
shampoo bottle and somebody
silent, then it stands a chance.

505
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,840
It's probably them use use your
shampoo.

506
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:44,200
There are other other times
where people was like, I don't

507
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,360
know, and therefore I'm not
going to say anything or even

508
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:52,040
more so I do know and that's my
reason for keeping quiet because

509
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,240
I don't want to say it was Bob,
yeah, or whoever.

510
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,680
Yeah, that, that that can
happen.

511
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:04,440
OK, 30 minute credibility
screen, let's let's go through

512
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,120
it.
How do you separate signal from

513
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:12,080
noise?
Substance is going to be the

514
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:18,160
main thing here with listen to
how much the person is actually

515
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:24,760
telling you with regards to are
you getting information that is,

516
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:28,600
you know, credible information
or are you just getting a lot of

517
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,560
fluff with information peppered
in?

518
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,000
And that's something where it
depending on, on what, what you

519
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,400
want from the conversation.
And we, we actually did some

520
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,640
training on this for, for a
while about when it was buying

521
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,640
time.
And there's a friend of mine

522
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,720
from MI 6, he could talk to you
for three or four hours and not

523
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,040
say a word.
It's absolutely brilliant.

524
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:50,920
You know it not when I say not
say a word.

525
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,600
Yeah, not give away.
But there'll just be nothing of

526
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,160
any sense.
And you, you, you'll be there

527
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,400
for ages, listening with intent,
thinking there must be something

528
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:58,520
coming.
It's not.

529
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,360
There's nothing happening.
You're not getting anywhere.

530
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,800
OK, OK.
So in terms of what people say,

531
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:10,240
linguistic red flags, are there
some words, some some things

532
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,760
people say that's automatically
like?

533
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,000
Yeah, a lot of, so I, I was
taught statement analysis by the

534
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,080
creator of it, which is
absolutely fantastic.

535
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,680
And, and it, it's, I'll give you
the, the kind of the basics of

536
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,600
it.
But a lot of the time what you

537
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,680
want to know, the information is
either in the statement or

538
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,720
missing from the statement.
And that's the way you need to

539
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,720
ask yourself what that person
means.

540
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:38,280
So for example, you could say to
somebody, you know, you're

541
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,880
coming to the room and you say,
hey, my wallet's gone missing.

542
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,120
Have you had it?
And they might turn around and

543
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:45,840
reply with something like, I
haven't even seen your wallet or

544
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,120
I don't know where you keep your
wallet.

545
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,120
OK.
That's not a no.

546
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,800
They haven't denied taking your
wallet.

547
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,600
Just because they don't know
where you keep it doesn't mean

548
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,800
say they haven't come across it.
Just because they don't know

549
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,840
where you normally keep it
doesn't mean they haven't taken

550
00:26:58,840 --> 00:26:59,840
it.
They've not answered the

551
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:04,200
question in a way that satisfies
the yeah, it pacifies the person

552
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,920
asking, but it doesn't actually
answer the question with a

553
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,240
denial.
And this is where you you need

554
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,600
to kind of be a bit more astute
with with what you're hearing

555
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,720
and say, OK, did that answer
actually answer my question or

556
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,840
did it just pacify me?
Is it just an answer?

557
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,240
Because you would say I've not
touched it.

558
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,440
I've not literally not got
anywhere near it, haven't seen

559
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,360
it, haven't.
Been so and that just grows in

560
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:30,520
so many different ways you.
Know, I love crime documentaries

561
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,960
and things and I watch it and
it's funny that with a with a

562
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,400
criminal thing, they do slip
around in that way when they're

563
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,840
trying to lie and deny it and
eventually it comes out that

564
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,440
they've done this.
But for behaviour.

565
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:46,040
I'm fascinated by behaviour and
communications and they do they

566
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,560
do this what you were saying.
Yeah, if you look at a lot of

567
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,400
police statements, the the
majority of them, over 90% of

568
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,400
police statements have a pattern
when it comes to deception.

569
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,760
And if somebody's telling the
truth, it'll be about 25% pre

570
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,920
incident, 50% of the incident
itself and about 25% post

571
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,880
incident.
Now if somebody's been

572
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,960
deceptive, it'll be about 90%
pre incident, about 5% with the

573
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,080
incident, 5%.
Rapidly Oh, I'm going to watch

574
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,920
the crime things again and I'm
going to analyse.

575
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,800
Inherently, we don't want to
lie.

576
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,400
People don't like lying.
They.

577
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:23,720
Know, yeah.
Yeah, so.

578
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,880
It takes a lot of energy.
Exactly.

579
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,640
Oh, it certainly does, you know,
and and consuming the cortisol

580
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:29,440
produces on.
Both.

581
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,720
Oh, it's ridiculous.
Liars tend to put it right up

582
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,200
until the various as long as
they possibly can.

583
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,360
Then when they have to actually
tell the lie, they'll quickly

584
00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:39,600
get it out and then move on and
wrap it up and that's it and job

585
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,720
done.
That's why I do think, you know,

586
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,520
with I've never understood
liars, you know, like, OK,

587
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,960
everyone lies is what the
private investigator guy that

588
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,040
Michael called the private
investigator, he said to me, I

589
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:54,280
questioned him.
I was like, come on, because now

590
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,400
everyone lies.
I was like, OK, humble get back

591
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,960
into my but, but I, you know,
like even growing up in things

592
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,960
like if someone didn't want to
be in a relationship, why

593
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,160
couldn't they just tell the
person I don't want to be in a

594
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,640
relationship?
I know that it's hard, but lying

595
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,840
is harder.
It takes much more effort, no?

596
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,040
And again, depending on every
situation you have got, let's

597
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,880
just take for example an average
couple.

598
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,320
I'm going to say the man cheats
because that's what women love

599
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:23,640
to hear.
That they want.

600
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:24,600
Sorry.
The man cheats.

601
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,520
The man cheats and instead of
like, you know, kind.

602
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,200
Of he doesn't tell her.
He doesn't tell her she suspects

603
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,520
something, but maybe he's
cheated and thought I've made a

604
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,520
massive mistake.
I don't want to split up.

605
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,440
I realize what I've done and I
want to stay with my other half.

606
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,760
Yes.
So therefore, you know, he's not

607
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,880
going to he's not going to tell
that he's not going to risk.

608
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,160
To never say you.
Realize he's made a mistake and

609
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,560
that's it.
You know, on other occasions, it

610
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,000
could just be down to the fact
that they don't come to hurt the

611
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,840
other person's feelings so much
that they'd rather put

612
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,320
themselves through misery than
actually the confrontation and.

613
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,680
I again, I didn't think about it
like that because I just think,

614
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,760
well, I would think, would you
not feel yeah, better and then

615
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,280
would be more of an equal
relationship and a fair

616
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,840
relationship because that's also
cheating, because then you're

617
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,520
cheating that person into being
with you.

618
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,480
So that's even worse because
they're not with you knowing who

619
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,400
you really are or what you've
done.

620
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,160
And if they still accept you
despite you doing all that well,

621
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,120
then that's great.
They've accepted you and you can

622
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,760
live free and be free of your.
You know, I don't know.

623
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:31,520
I just.
It's.

624
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,520
Yeah.
Yeah, I suppose it all depends

625
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,400
on the person and their
upbringing and, and kind of, you

626
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,920
know, what's worked for them or
what hasn't worked for them in

627
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,240
the past.
And this is because people are

628
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,480
creatures of habits and
patterns.

629
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,480
And if we've done certain things
two or three times and in the

630
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,800
past, it's it's ended up in, in
resulting in negativity for us.

631
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,840
We will try everything to avoid
that in future relationships.

632
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,480
Yeah, I think, yeah, yeah.
OK.

633
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:04,400
Where do people most often over
interpret queues and then make

634
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,200
false assumptions?
When they're looking for them.

635
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,880
And this is this is something
that I can speak from experience

636
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,760
with a particular case I had
with industrial espionage.

637
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,160
And I was called in over money
that was getting going missing

638
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,960
from the company accounts.
And they did a lot of

639
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,040
preliminary interviews that were
recorded.

640
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,480
And the recordings were sent to
me.

641
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,880
And the, the very first
interviews were just a very

642
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,120
basic, who are you?
Where do you work?

643
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,840
You know, what did you have
access to these accounts, blah,

644
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:36,880
blah, blah.
And that was it.

645
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,160
And it was just OK.
Then the second lot of

646
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,760
recordings were a little bit
more in depth, but not, you

647
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,800
know, not kind of interrogation
level.

648
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,840
And the recordings were sent to
me to analyse and I sat through

649
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,400
hours and hours and hours.
And there was one particular one

650
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:56,760
where I saw a lady and I thought
she's doing something and I

651
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,480
don't think she was doing it on
the first video.

652
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,040
So I went back to the first
video and she wasn't in the

653
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:02,960
second video.
Every time she spoke, she'd do

654
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,840
that.
And I thought normally kind of

655
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,120
covering the mouth and that kind
of thing is usually a way of

656
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:10,800
saying I don't want to.
The truth again.

657
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,000
So something that to me, I
thought that's interesting.

658
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,280
She wasn't doing it the first
time.

659
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:17,880
She was doing.
It the very time.

660
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,480
So yeah, OK.
And I called mom and I said

661
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,160
please have this lady in a room.
I'm gonna come in and have a

662
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:24,920
chat to her.
And I just wanna know, you know?

663
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,200
And I watched the video again
and again, and I convinced

664
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,560
myself that there was all the
tells that were right.

665
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,640
OK, so you can yourself.
You know what I'm saying?

666
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,960
To you about clusters, Yeah.
You know this is the thing that

667
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,880
one tell alone was pretty
strong, but when I started

668
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,240
looking for the other.
Founders.

669
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,680
I started seeing them and, and
so I, I went in and I realized

670
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,080
the mistake I'd made because the
first video was taken in the

671
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,680
winter time.
The second video was taken

672
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,960
earlier on in the year, coming
towards spring.

673
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,200
And by the time I got to the
third video, we were almost in

674
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,560
the summer.
And I walked in and the lady

675
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,080
looked at me.
She said really showed.

676
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,920
The pollen kept really high and
she was rubbing her nose and I

677
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,600
realized exactly what I'd done.
OK.

678
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:10,720
And that's something that I
hadn't.

679
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,240
Taken.
You don't think she was doing

680
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,000
that because she thought she's
called in for it?

681
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:15,400
No.
Definitely not.

682
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:17,560
No, I think you would know
anyway.

683
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,160
Nose was bright red like Rudolph
and, and, and I'd give myself a

684
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,920
serious talking to her that day.
I mean, it was a long, long time

685
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,640
ago and I was still very green
and I realised, you know, that

686
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,000
if, if.
It's a good lesson.

687
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:31,800
Oh yeah, definitely.
You know if you look for it,

688
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,960
you'll find it.
OK, you know those lie detector

689
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,520
machine things, Do they work?
Not in the way people think they

690
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:42,920
do so they they detect stress,
not not deception.

691
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,000
I would be permanently failing
though, even even when I'm just

692
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,880
like baseline, you know?
It's just the, the IT, it

693
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,200
basically measures spikes in
stress levels and, and, and of

694
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,000
course, because lying is
stressful and it has the same

695
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,600
kind of physiological reactions
on yeah in the body.

696
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,760
So therefore, if the stress
levels go up at a particular

697
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,239
question, it causes the the.
But that, that that's so fair

698
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,400
for people that are highly
strung and stressed out, like

699
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,600
all the time.
And even the concept of a lie

700
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,440
detector, you think someone's
putting the thing that's so

701
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:18,800
stressful.
Yeah.

702
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,800
And fail everything.
So the, the thing to remember

703
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,760
here is you're not trying to
beat the machine.

704
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,960
You're, you know, or even you're
not even like kind of competing

705
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,600
with the machine as it were.
It's the person operating the

706
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,040
machine that you have to be more
conscious of, not.

707
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,199
What are they doing?
They're going to be watching you

708
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:39,280
pre interview, post interview
and during the interview.

709
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,440
And so there's a friend of mine
who worked Guantanamo Bay post

710
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,840
911 and she used to get more
information from the detainees

711
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,360
walking to the interrogation
room and walking from the

712
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,320
interrogation room than she ever
did in the interrogation room.

713
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,560
Wow.
Because I want to know.

714
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,880
I want to know what she sees.
It was a side by sidewalk which

715
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,720
was very unofficial, very
relaxed, very casual and they,

716
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,440
they just felt more comfortable.
So therefore they felt, you

717
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,560
know, anything I'm saying here.
I'm all right here you.

718
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,440
Know and and of course that that
whole level of comfort that she

719
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,960
provided on the way to the
interrogation room and then of

720
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,360
course you'd get in there start
the whole process off and then.

721
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:15,640
Yeah, Then you get a bit
nervous.

722
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Interesting.

723
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,080
OK, so what's a telltale sign of
a lie?

724
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,240
Like really solid.
Are you going to say blink rate?

725
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,720
Maybe blink rate?
Blink rate will be because it's

726
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,800
probably one of the most
accurate ones because of the

727
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:37,840
stress levels in a lie.
But there is no definitive kind

728
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,200
of Pinocchio effect where you
can say they did this, so

729
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,480
therefore they're lied.
But looking to them.

730
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,560
Yeah.
Certain was a.

731
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:45,120
Level.
Oh, yeah.

732
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,000
So that I actually Jews, yeah.
I mean, again, that that varies

733
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,800
with different people.
So again, not everybody goes to

734
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,040
the same place.
And this is where it went so

735
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,320
wrong for the Pentagon.
But you'll have to again ask

736
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,240
that person questions to be able
to establish where do they go to

737
00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:04,440
recall memories?
Where do they go to create?

738
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,160
Memories.
So if I was going to say

739
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,880
anything at all, look for
clusters and look for change.

740
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,080
What's you know, once you've
baselined a person and you found

741
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,280
out what's normal for them, then
if something happens that's not

742
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,120
normal, you can say, OK, why
doesn't necessarily mean it's a

743
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,560
lie, but it does mean
something's different.

744
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,080
And then you can start asking
why.

745
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,920
Oh, this is getting.
Yeah.

746
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,840
Makes me want to ask a whole
bunch of people questions to

747
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:37,760
find out if they're lying.
OK, so calm authority if you

748
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,520
want to communicate that it's
the not scattering vibe.

749
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,320
You don't want to be the
meerkat, the mouse that's

750
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,480
running into the hole.
No fast movements.

751
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:54,160
What else?
Just a level of authority that

752
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,640
is going to allow you to take
charge of the room by doing

753
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,240
everything a little bit slower,
whether it's talking slower,

754
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:04,280
breathing slower, walking
slower.

755
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,720
And that can be in any scenario.
If you are the person in the

756
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:13,280
room that is kind of the most
comfortable, then people are

757
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,200
going to look at you with a
different level of of kind of

758
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,560
why is it that everybody else is
coming here and grabbing a seat

759
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,160
and trying to be, you know, kind
of neat and tidy and prim and

760
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,280
proper.
And this person is coming here

761
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,400
and they are so relaxed.
It's almost like they're at

762
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,360
home.
And if you can be the most

763
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,680
comfortable person in the room,
then you've got.

764
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,040
I understand the, the, the
scatty thing and I understand

765
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,200
the, you know, the slow down
because when you get together,

766
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:44,840
you're scattering about.
However, there's also just well,

767
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,160
like you can see with me, I'm
very comfortable now.

768
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,400
I'm completely relaxed, but I'm
animated and I'm much more

769
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,440
expressive and I'm I'm naturally
I was born 1,000,000 miles an

770
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:55,880
hour.
Like I can't help it.

771
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:57,560
I was born completely
hyperactive.

772
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,240
So I I find it very difficult to
my baseline is not slow and calm

773
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:04,880
and relaxed.
My baseline is always, but you

774
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,160
know, yeah.
And I don't really know how to

775
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,520
describe it.
You're comfortable so if you see

776
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,040
where you've got your posture,
where you're sitting right now

777
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,720
from like kind of you know,
below the shoulders down to your

778
00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:18,560
hips, you know thighs area
that's not really moving, you

779
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,040
can say you can still be
animated with your hand.

780
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,080
Oh, your body's not moving And
if on the other hand you're

781
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,120
sitting there not going well,
what I think is and fidgeting

782
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,520
like this, then that would be a
bit more concerned.

783
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,520
So moving kind of your arms and
your legs not so bad.

784
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:34,440
But overall, if you're you're
comfortable, you can still be

785
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,560
animated and still be kind of
SAT permanently planted in the

786
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,320
seat as it were, without looking
like you're.

787
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,360
Confidently, that's.
Happening, yeah.

788
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,440
That's an interesting one.
Yeah, that's an interesting 1.

789
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,680
So what's the one habit?
A little micro habit that

790
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,240
instantly destroys your, well,
another person's perception of

791
00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:57,920
trust in you.
Like, oh, you were trustworthy

792
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,360
person, something that they're
doing.

793
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,520
Yes, yeah.
I would again go back to that

794
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,520
rapid movements.
I know we have spoken about it,

795
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:11,120
but it does kind of because
people are more likely to trust

796
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:16,440
people who are in control, who
kind of can be themselves and

797
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,080
are comfortable.
That whole prey movement, you

798
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,640
know, like, so you visualize the
tigers cause of being very kind

799
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,120
of, you know, relaxed as they
walk through the jungle because

800
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,160
they know there's not very many
things that are going to come

801
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,400
and attack them.
That makes people feel huge

802
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,200
levels of comfort.
You know, they, they, they feel

803
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,720
comfortable around you because
they know you're in control.

804
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,320
So when somebody is fidgeting
and they're very short, rapid

805
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,480
movements and whatever else, it
makes people feel uneasy as

806
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,160
well.
You know, because of if you want

807
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,240
to call it a vibe, you can, you
know, there's lots of different

808
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:51,720
ways of, of saying it, but they,
they give off that vibe of being

809
00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:55,320
kind of, oh, we watched somebody
looking at us very dodgy, kind

810
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,400
of, you know, backstreet kind of
deal, a kind of way I want to

811
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,560
run away and constantly looking
at their surroundings.

812
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,000
And that, that's what makes
people, you know, if you're

813
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,040
constantly darting.
Darting I love that.

814
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,400
I love the scatty animal thing.
It it actually makes complete,

815
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,000
complete sense.
So when you, you know, watch TV,

816
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,120
you're watching news night,
whatever it is you love island.

817
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:18,800
I don't know what you watch at
The Apprentice.

818
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,800
Do you find yourself analysing
people as to politicians, let's

819
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:23,520
say?
I think.

820
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:24,640
Oh.
Yeah.

821
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:26,880
So I have done it for for
different shows and news

822
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,920
channels and that kind of thing,
mainly over in the States more

823
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,240
so.
You have SO and you asked to do

824
00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:33,880
that.
Yeah, and I think the the one

825
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,840
the one in time I was actually
on with with two other people.

826
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,760
One was a a body language and
and communication in non verbal

827
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,400
cues expert.
The other one was a FBI

828
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,800
behavioural profiler, and we
were looking at a particular

829
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,440
case.
And out of the three of us on

830
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,880
this particular show, there was
only myself that spotted that.

831
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,720
The couple that were in the
store at the time, nobody else

832
00:40:57,720 --> 00:40:59,000
had realized what they were
doing.

833
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,600
And when I pulled it up, I said,
does anybody notice what they're

834
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,520
doing in the store?
And everyone was like, no,

835
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,600
what's going on?
I said, they're shoplifting.

836
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,680
I'm like, oh, I said, but they
did buy a block of cheese in a

837
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,000
jar of coffee.
I said, yeah, I said they did.

838
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,120
I said, but if you watch when
they walked in, they had four

839
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,160
empty flat bags.
And when they walked out, they

840
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:21,800
got these bags absolutely
filled.

841
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,080
Yes.
They paid for the coffee and the

842
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,480
cheese.
That was just a decoy, you know,

843
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,640
And they walked out and they
were.

844
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,080
Oh, OK.
We didn't notice that one.

845
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,200
You're watching the details.
Yeah.

846
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,200
So if, you know, sometimes you
have people that don't come

847
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,160
across as very, their body
languages isn't very good.

848
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,320
Like, you know, they just, they
let themselves down.

849
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,280
But what they say is very
credible and it makes sense.

850
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,640
And you just sort of feel like,
come on, you know, all the other

851
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:50,960
way around.
You know, they might have great

852
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,080
body language, but then what
they're saying is isn't great.

853
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,080
So how do you coach people like
that?

854
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,720
Is there a way for them to marry
up the, you know, if what

855
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:00,680
they're saying is great, marry
up the body language?

856
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,200
Can you teach them?
Yeah.

857
00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:03,840
I mean, it can be a tough
degree.

858
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:05,920
Yeah.
I mean, if you look at going

859
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,560
back to the elections when you
got Bernie Sanders, bless him,

860
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,640
who, you know, may have been a
good candidate, I'm not going to

861
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,400
get into politics.
Yeah, I'm saying you may, you

862
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:15,320
may not.
I don't know.

863
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,160
But the bottom line is when you
see him sitting there in his

864
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,120
chair with his mittens on like
this, he he doesn't project

865
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,400
authority.
He's not somebody that you see

866
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,240
as presidential material.
So of course, you know, you

867
00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:29,440
would have to say to him, look,
you know if you're going to be

868
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,480
clinging onto the podium to
keeping you to keep yourself

869
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,280
upright, you're not going to be
seeing it's.

870
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,160
A good sign?
So, you know, when, when people

871
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:42,680
think of kind of world leaders
and rulers, and I actually, I'm,

872
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,720
I'm getting really, really
annoyed with that term being

873
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:47,520
used a lot because it's kind of
flicking the narrative and

874
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,640
people are starting to forget
that they work for us.

875
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,880
They are elected representatives
of what we want.

876
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,760
They've started the news and
everyone started using the term

877
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,680
leaders all over the place and
rulers.

878
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,520
And you know, like we're going
back in time.

879
00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:02,680
But but the, you know, when you
think of somebody who is meant

880
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,360
to be representing your country,
you want somebody strong and

881
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,840
bold, you know, who can, who can
kind of give that persona off,

882
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,240
you know, and, and that's where
your body language comes in.

883
00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:19,560
You want somebody who you know
looks comfortable going we've

884
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,640
got there.
Yeah, yeah, who sits

885
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,160
comfortably.
I do watch, you know, watch the

886
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,200
politicians when they interact
with each other.

887
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,560
There's a bit of a power game
sometimes who shakes whose hand,

888
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:34,040
which angle, the way that they
sit, they try to command

889
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:36,920
presence in the room.
And sometimes there's

890
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,120
competition with who's the the
VIP in the room.

891
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:45,040
And it's, it's also very.
It makes one uncomfortable to

892
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,760
see when there's a difficult
conversation between the two

893
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,240
politicians and you can see one
rising depression and the voice

894
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:54,520
goes up and the scatty mouse
vibes start happening and you

895
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,720
think, oh, you've got together,
Come on, You know, you can kind

896
00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:00,360
of see it slipping.
It's quite.

897
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,480
And and this is where you, you,
you know, when in these

898
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,640
situations you need to do in the
intelligence school ICBM, which

899
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,280
the military guys when I was
intercontinental ballistic

900
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,480
missile, but it's actually
instant calm breath method

901
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:12,920
instant.
Calm.

902
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,760
Breath.
Yeah, you can look at double in,

903
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,880
hold it and let it go and that
just kind of resets you

904
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,200
momentarily.
There's a couple of different

905
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:22,520
ways of doing it, but that's
that's one of.

906
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,520
Them No, come on, let's learn it
when you're under pressure.

907
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:26,640
You feeling it?
Yeah.

908
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,120
So depending on what?
You do what you.

909
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,680
Do what the situation is you
can, you can do the the box

910
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:35,680
breathing or the it's I think
it's in for in for seven, hold

911
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:37,880
for five, out for 8.
So it's 75 out.

912
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:50,880
So you go in, hold.
That's a long one.

913
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:51,960
Yeah.
And that's it.

914
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:53,360
And that quick one that you do
just like.

915
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,160
That's fucking AA AA double.
Yeah, like a really deep.

916
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,000
Yeah, 2 quick snatches of breath
in.

917
00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:00,080
You can do that through the
mouth.

918
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:01,440
I like that.
I like that because it

919
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,520
immediately snaps you out of
that silly, you know, going down

920
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,600
that rabbit hole, literally the
rabbit hole behavior.

921
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,760
I had a a podcast earlier with
the lady who's a public speaking

922
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,800
expert, really, really done it
so many years.

923
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,360
And she also spoke about the
importance of that, that whole

924
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,440
thing breathing, you know, you
about to go red or you're about

925
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,080
to feel really uncomfortable
moment.

926
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,040
And she's just also the
breathing.

927
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,600
And to always do that, even if
you're comfortable, just to

928
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:31,480
prepare your your your brain,
your lungs, your voice books,

929
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,440
all those have to do the
humming, you know, but yeah, but

930
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,040
but these people under pressure
and in serious position and

931
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,080
anyone under breath, you know,
in a meeting, someone asks you a

932
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,160
question you don't really know.
And it's like, how can you just

933
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,760
quickly reset yourself?
So you're saying a double breath

934
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:45,000
in.
Yeah.

935
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,960
Double double intake of breath.
Very sharp metal novels, but it

936
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,560
has to be like, you know, one
and then another, like almost

937
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,800
instant and.
Yeah, I love that because that's

938
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:57,920
a quick, actionable, actionable
thing that you can do.

939
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:00,400
So what?
What intelligence gathering

940
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:05,560
skills translate best to, you
know, leadership to sales?

941
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,880
Because you've got this amazing
knowledge, but not everyone's,

942
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:08,800
you know?
Yeah.

943
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,000
Criminal so.
That's a double answer to that

944
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,720
question.
In the sense of leadership and

945
00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:16,040
sales, I segregate a lot
because.

946
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,520
They are different, yeah.
You have kind of two different

947
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,640
worlds.
So with with leadership in the

948
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,240
sense of in the intelligence
world, I mean, some of my

949
00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:27,360
assignments, one of my very,
very first assignments, I was

950
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,320
sat down and they said to me
find out how the Russians are

951
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,800
getting rail and information out
of Korea.

952
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:35,680
That was it.
That was it.

953
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,080
And I was like.
What are you supposed to do?

954
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,000
And I was like, OK, not much to
go on.

955
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,920
I didn't get any Aston Martins
or exploding watches or X-ray.

956
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaking no James Bond.
Gear, none of the none of the

957
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:46,960
toys.
I was just, you know, instead of

958
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:48,320
got what you're still doing
here.

959
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,280
So I was like, OK then.
And it took me two or three days

960
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,960
to to to do it, to complete the
assignment.

961
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,600
But that's the level of kind of
free hand, your hands.

962
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:01,720
So it's very different to the
military where you tell when to

963
00:47:01,720 --> 00:47:03,200
be, where to be housing, you
know, you.

964
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,080
Give specific you've got no
guidance.

965
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,520
Yeah, it's nothing.
You, you, you have training, and

966
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,200
they expect you to rely on what
you've learned to be able to

967
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,320
just go out, do your job and
come back.

968
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:17,080
So that in itself sets up a
leadership level of right, I

969
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,440
have to do this for myself.
And this is where you know your

970
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,920
destination and however you get
there is, is down to you.

971
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,080
So you have to be your own
leader.

972
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:30,960
And when you're your own leader,
you can bring other people in

973
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,080
that can help you.
And they, if you bring them on

974
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,560
board with the same level of
enthusiasm, they want to get to

975
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,640
the destination just as much as
you do.

976
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,600
If you're with the right team
and you, you encourage them in

977
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,120
the right way.
Gosh, what?

978
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:48,440
Training, do you get to do that?
It's like, how often do I mean?

979
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,240
It was good.
And I suppose what I had to do,

980
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:53,280
I had to reverse engineer it
because, well, I thought, OK,

981
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,280
well if I was going to get
Ralgon intelligence out of

982
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,480
Korea, how would I do it?
So I thought, well, the first

983
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,440
thing I'd do is I'd find myself
a Ralgon expert.

984
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,920
And unlike McDonald's workers,
there's actually very few.

985
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,120
So there's a very short list of
people.

986
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,800
Then you look at the Ralgon
experts that have operated in

987
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,680
Korea.
Then you look at what they've

988
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,400
done and the works they've done
and whatever else.

989
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,280
And I, I trolled through a lot
of work and, and papers and

990
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,600
publications and that kind of
thing until eventually I found

991
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,960
one that was published with a
Russian co-author.

992
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,800
And I was like, ah, now I might
be onto something.

993
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,840
Then I checked him out.
Turns out he'd got toys to the

994
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:29,760
Russian Embassy.
And that was it.

995
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:30,920
Just kind.
Of all come together, that's why

996
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,280
you're called an intelligence,
because you need to be

997
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,320
intelligent too and.
That was it, yeah.

998
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:37,840
Once it was all confirmed, that
was it.

999
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:39,560
I went back two or three days
and I got the answer.

1000
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,640
I did most of it without leaving
my living room and, and and got

1001
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,160
the assignment completed.
So that's why they kept

1002
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,680
employing me, I think.
That's why you've got all the

1003
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,320
books and people love them and
you're on this podcast and

1004
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,720
you're, yeah, the genius, very,
very intelligent.

1005
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:56,880
But yes, yes, thinking on your
feet, thinking by yourself, not

1006
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:58,280
having anyone tell you what to
do.

1007
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,760
You come up with a plan and step
by step, execute.

1008
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,160
It's very.
That's the, I mean leadership is

1009
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,960
it goes into the whole people
skills when it comes to things

1010
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,720
like sales as well.
This is where the two kind of do

1011
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:15,800
overlap because leadership is
something that if you're just

1012
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,840
telling people what to do, then
you're not a leader.

1013
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,600
If they don't literally share
the same dream as you and want

1014
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,440
to get there at the same time,
then then you're nothing other

1015
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,240
than a boss, you know?
You're just telling.

1016
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:29,600
People telling them what to do
and they don't like that either,

1017
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,160
do they?
If you're in a situation where

1018
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,880
you've got a dream or a goal or
an assignment that you want to

1019
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,400
achieve and whatever your
destination is, whatever your

1020
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,680
goal is, the team that are
around you are all equally

1021
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:42,920
wanting to get there.
All excited when they find out

1022
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,880
that we've taken another the
tips 2 steps forward or

1023
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,200
disappointed when something's
knocked back a little bit.

1024
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,960
And if they're as involved and
invested into reaching the goal

1025
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:53,920
as what you are, then you're
doing something right as a

1026
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:54,320
leader.
Oh.

1027
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,680
Wow.
It seems obvious, but it's.

1028
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:00,560
Yeah, it's not the case in a lot
of companies.

1029
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,600
But you do want to bring people
with you.

1030
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,920
Yeah, That's why I think comms
in general communication, if

1031
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,480
you're speaking to people and
you're checking in along the

1032
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,920
way, you've got more of you
stand, more of a chance of all

1033
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:13,720
that stuff.
Yeah, I've just had a talk about

1034
00:50:13,720 --> 00:50:17,920
that actually with the NHS.
We're looking at like kind of

1035
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:19,680
insider threats and that kind of
thing.

1036
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,720
And I said the problem is, and
it's a drawing kind of epidemic

1037
00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:28,000
really within the workforce now
is what I've called the 5:00 to

1038
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,680
5:00 on Friday syndrome.
And that's when it's 5:00 to

1039
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,520
5:00 on Friday and people are
they're, they're switched off,

1040
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:37,160
they're ready for the week,
they're ready to go.

1041
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,720
And whatever happens in the
office, whether the phone rings

1042
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:42,160
or the printer explodes,
whatever, they're just not

1043
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:43,680
bothered.
It's a Monday morning problem.

1044
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,880
And that 5:00 to 5:00 on Friday
syndrome is, is spreading to

1045
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,640
most days of the week.
You know, it's, it's, it's going

1046
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,240
through lunch breaks and it's
nearly home time and it, oh,

1047
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:54,040
it's.
Horrible.

1048
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:59,000
Yeah.
And and that kind of negativity

1049
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,920
can spread through an office in
a workplace like wildfire.

1050
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,240
And that's when you know, if
you, if you kill that kind of

1051
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:07,840
like I say, I'll use the word
vibe again, if you kill that

1052
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:08,760
vibe.
Yeah, it is a vibe.

1053
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,360
Yeah, totally, totally.
It's a vibe.

1054
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,640
Cause a lot of problems.
OK, another problem, hostile

1055
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,120
people, hostile personalities
and they, they're everywhere.

1056
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,680
How do you deal with hostile
toxic people?

1057
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:22,880
Like it's so difficult to avoid
a lot of.

1058
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,440
People go down the route of of
sometimes you.

1059
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,040
Can't.
Yeah, I mean, there will always

1060
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:29,680
be hostile people in everything
you do.

1061
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:33,440
And of course, you know, if if
you go down the confrontational

1062
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,320
route of, you know, somebody
says or does something that you,

1063
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:39,640
you know, they're, they're
argumentative with you.

1064
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,520
A lot of people try to want to
win the argument and they they

1065
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:47,160
to them, they see that as a win.
Instead, what you need to do is

1066
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:51,520
look and say, OK, what why is
this person in that predicament,

1067
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,360
in that situation being, you
know, this way in the 1st place,

1068
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:58,480
what's going on in their life?
And once you turn around and

1069
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:00,760
say, right, I, I think it's
Winston Churchill actually said,

1070
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,400
I don't like that man.
I must get to know him better.

1071
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,040
And that's something that once
you start with somebody you

1072
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,960
don't like, you generally find
that there.

1073
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:13,240
When you scratch the surface and
get a little bit deeper and find

1074
00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:16,640
out what they really like, it's
not always exactly the same as

1075
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,120
what they portray.
That's where you that's where

1076
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,560
you've got a better way of
dealing with hostile people.

1077
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,520
And this is more long term than
just the I.

1078
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,240
Think you're right, you know, I
think you're so right and I

1079
00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:32,080
think that when we say that
someone is hostile or toxic,

1080
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,720
we're almost put in that label
so that we don't have to deal

1081
00:52:35,720 --> 00:52:40,160
with them and I can't However,
you're absolutely correct that

1082
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,040
yeah, if you probably did go
deeper, you'd find.

1083
00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:44,880
More reason.
It's an excuse we give

1084
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:46,800
ourselves.
It's an excuse I don't want to.

1085
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:48,040
I don't.
Want to deal with?

1086
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,640
It too much like effort.
Too much effort is the thing.

1087
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,720
And that's the truth.
So and that tells you more about

1088
00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:57,720
yourself as a person because
then you need to ask yourself,

1089
00:52:57,720 --> 00:53:00,040
okay, so why aren't making the
effort?

1090
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,120
Everybody can be a good
Christian to all the good

1091
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,320
Christians, but can they be a
good Christian or, but you know,

1092
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,680
whatever good person, good
whatever to to the person who's

1093
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,720
maybe a little bit nasty or a
little bit toxic or a little

1094
00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:15,560
bit, you know, boisterous or
whatever, you know, you, you,

1095
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,520
you shouldn't be able to.
If you're picking and choosing

1096
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,160
the people you're being nice to,
then does that really make you a

1097
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:27,320
nice person?
Although I had a behavioural

1098
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,360
psychologist, Oxford professor
come on and he was talking about

1099
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,920
Dunbar, Professor Dunbar.
And he was saying how we have

1100
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:38,240
to, our actual networks that we
maintain and have quality ratios

1101
00:53:38,240 --> 00:53:41,520
with are very, very small.
And you know, there's zones, you

1102
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,560
know, and there's like a zone 1
and then a zone 2.

1103
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:48,240
And it's, it's a huge investment
to, to these people that we have

1104
00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:51,680
in our closest network.
And normally if one comes in,

1105
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,240
another one has to go out.
So maybe there's also an element

1106
00:53:55,240 --> 00:53:59,400
of that where you think I only
have capacity for that?

1107
00:53:59,720 --> 00:54:04,440
Sometimes, yes, but there are
also ways because as, as humans,

1108
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:09,640
we are generally lazy and we
will look at what's in our

1109
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:10,640
interest.
Yeah.

1110
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,040
What does this person bring to
the table for me?

1111
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,720
And once that particular person
is not bringing as much to the

1112
00:54:16,720 --> 00:54:18,400
table.
And it doesn't necessarily have

1113
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:20,280
to be anything, you know,
tangible.

1114
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,280
It could just be the fact that
when you're around them, they

1115
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:23,520
make you feel good.
Yeah.

1116
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:29,200
So if that person stops that,
they might disappear into the

1117
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:32,120
background a little bit.
And the best advice I was ever

1118
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,560
given by somebody when it come
to keeping such, you know,

1119
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:38,920
managing larger networks of
people is every week scroll to

1120
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,680
the bottom of your contacts
list, whether it's WhatsApp or

1121
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:44,600
your text messages or whatever.
And whoever's at the bottom,

1122
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,480
just send them a text saying
something along the lines of,

1123
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,120
hey, haven't spoken to you in a
while, just reaching out to see

1124
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,200
how things are now.
Ask don't want anything from you

1125
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,200
just want to say hi.
And that happens.

1126
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,400
You can do that with two or
three people at the most, you

1127
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,720
know, maximum of like 5, but
never any more than that.

1128
00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:04,760
Otherwise you're just setting
yourself up for more difficulty

1129
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:08,080
in managing more numbers.
But generally one to two people

1130
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,960
do that and and you'll be
surprised how many people come

1131
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,080
back and go, hey, yeah, nice to
hear from you.

1132
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,360
And and that if you do that
every time, that bottom number

1133
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:20,240
then gets to the top.
You just keep that going and you

1134
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:24,240
kind of you can, you can then,
you know, widen your circle.

1135
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:25,880
Did You Know?
What I find about you is what

1136
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,040
you're you're an intelligence
officer and you know all these

1137
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:30,720
things about people that the
lies, you know how to, I mean,

1138
00:55:30,720 --> 00:55:32,880
you couldn't manipulate people
if you wanted to.

1139
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:34,120
I can see you.
You don't.

1140
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,480
I mean, if you had to have a
goal for for the greater good,

1141
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:37,920
you definitely know how to do
that.

1142
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,720
But what I'm getting from you is
that you're very you like

1143
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:43,960
people.
You're open to people despite

1144
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,040
knowing all that stuff.
It's like, surely that would

1145
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,480
have made you think.
You would think so, especially

1146
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,440
with some of the people I've met
and I've mentioned really

1147
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:57,680
horrible people, but at the same
time, to do my job.

1148
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:02,320
There's a trope in Hollywood
where, you know, assets and

1149
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,720
informants and that kind of
thing are treated dreadfully.

1150
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:06,680
And that's actually not the
case.

1151
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:11,480
We, if we want, if you can
imagine what we do for a living,

1152
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:16,240
we go over to a foreign country,
speak to somebody, find

1153
00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:17,880
somebody, target them
deliberately.

1154
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,560
And then we have to talk them
into doing something that's not

1155
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,040
in their best interest, could
get them killed or in prison for

1156
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:27,040
life or even their family killed
or imprisoned, ask them to

1157
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,520
betray their country, commit
treason and steal secret

1158
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:34,120
information.
So you know, that's a big ask.

1159
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:37,840
So if you're, if you're doing
that for somebody, you can't do

1160
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,200
that and just say, look, I'll
buy you a beer if you will.

1161
00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:42,880
You have to really get to know
that person.

1162
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,560
You have to really get to know
their triggers, their levers,

1163
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:49,120
their personality.
And you can't get to that level

1164
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:54,880
of intimacy with a person
without a huge level of empathy

1165
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,520
towards them.
You need a real genuine

1166
00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:59,120
relationship.
It can't be done on a fake

1167
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,280
relationship.
And once you've got that

1168
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,240
relationship and it is real,
even though they don't even know

1169
00:57:04,240 --> 00:57:07,040
your real name, the bond is
real.

1170
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,360
They will help you out and, and
get what you want.

1171
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:14,560
So but the the the caveat is you
must always deliver.

1172
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,680
Yeah, I was going to ask you,
does that feel, Does that feel

1173
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:19,600
manipulative?
Dare I say that word?

1174
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:21,320
But does it because you've got a
goal?

1175
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:25,320
Yeah, it's a degree.
But the The thing is, is once

1176
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,280
you've found out what motivates
that person, and it could be any

1177
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,360
number of thing, it could be
their child might need health

1178
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:33,200
care that they can't get or
afford.

1179
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:37,240
They might just purely be greed
and money, you know, it could be

1180
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:38,880
any number of things, but you
must deliver.

1181
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:41,520
Because once you've kind of made
that promise, you know, whether

1182
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:44,640
it's a British passports and
citizenship or whatever it is,

1183
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:49,120
you know that that relationship
is completely ruined if you say,

1184
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,960
if you keep dangling a carrot,
but don't actually ever let them

1185
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:54,080
get it.
You don't ever let them get it,

1186
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,640
OK.
You know, with Behave learning

1187
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:04,120
about behaviour, do you think I
mean most, do you think most

1188
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,800
people are good at detecting
behaviour patterns in others?

1189
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:11,600
Do you think that they're aware
most majority or not really?

1190
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,200
The majority of people are
without knowing.

1191
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:16,920
It's more of a subconscious
level because.

1192
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:18,600
Right.
So they are actually, yeah.

1193
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:25,360
It's one of those things where
if you ask, people who have the

1194
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,360
answer to something in
hindsight, will turn around and

1195
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:29,120
say, I knew something was wrong.
I knew something was off.

1196
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:31,640
I knew they'll always say
afterwards, I couldn't quite

1197
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:33,720
tell what it was, but I knew
there was something wrong about

1198
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:36,080
that person or wrong about what
he said, or I knew they were

1199
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:36,680
lying.
Yeah.

1200
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,480
So they, they, they do know,
even if they don't know how they

1201
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:43,040
know the majority of the time
they get a good feeling that

1202
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,200
says something's not right.
So they might not know what it

1203
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:49,160
is or exactly what they're
looking for, but they do know.

1204
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:51,480
They have seen it.
But also then it might be even

1205
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:55,360
another layer because you might,
you might not want to be talking

1206
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,080
about something or something
happened and made you

1207
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,080
uncomfortable.
Then you know that they might

1208
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,760
know and they detect.
And then then you know that they

1209
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:05,200
know.
And then they know that you know

1210
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:06,800
that they know.
And then.

1211
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:08,360
Yeah.
Spirals, yeah.

1212
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:11,560
Although I don't know, that's
why I'm asking, because I I

1213
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,480
sometimes do wonder how aware
people.

1214
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:16,480
But you say that distinctively,
yeah.

1215
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:20,640
You, you, if somebody's very
nervous to talk to somebody

1216
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:24,520
about a particular topic and you
know, they, they need to

1217
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,680
approach that person, sometimes
they can, you know, kind of give

1218
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,720
off that feeling themselves.
And, and you know what I'm

1219
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:33,280
saying to you about, you know,
if you look for something,

1220
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:35,880
you'll find it.
And therefore they can convince

1221
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,600
themselves sometimes that there
is something there when there

1222
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,320
wasn't, you know, because of
that what they are projecting

1223
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:45,240
themselves.
OK, So a lot of takeaways from

1224
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:48,080
this.
I think the, the thing that it's

1225
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:51,720
such an all, there's two very
easy things for me to to take

1226
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:55,040
away from this, this cattiness
of the mouse and the, the, the

1227
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:59,040
prey, you know, animals, the
meerkats, all of those guys, the

1228
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:01,680
way that they behave.
It is, it is pretty obvious.

1229
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,440
And then the other one is the
breathing thing to help.

1230
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,800
But also I'll just take the
whole animal Kingdom.

1231
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,040
I'm going to go back to I find
this a fascinating thing, but

1232
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,080
you know how?
Like you were saying, like the

1233
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:15,720
lions and they walk and they've
got the paws and they're all

1234
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:18,280
like this and the cheetah just
doesn't have to prove itself.

1235
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,560
But when it wants to run, it
will just and it's it's run.

1236
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:27,480
But then don't you think like
that sometimes humans, that's

1237
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:30,600
going to sound really weird.
I'm going to just just bear with

1238
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:32,560
me.
But I almost think like, you

1239
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,960
know, in nature, you have like
symbiotic relationships where

1240
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,800
you might have a tree and then
it's got a plant that grows on

1241
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:38,880
it.
And then that plant would

1242
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:40,400
otherwise never be able to get
the light.

1243
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:42,680
So it grows with a tree.
And if it's symbiotic, it

1244
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:44,560
doesn't hurt the tree.
The tree is happy.

1245
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:46,440
You know, you have those little
fish that swim with sharks and

1246
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,080
they clean their teeth and that
kind of symbiotic relation.

1247
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:51,600
And then you've got the
parasitic relationships and then

1248
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,880
the ones that, you know, viruses
and those, but then they might

1249
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:57,880
get too clever and then they
land up, killing their, they're

1250
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:01,520
too aggressive and then end up
destroying their, their source.

1251
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:05,440
And then you have the
chameleons, you know, the ones

1252
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:07,600
that then they change and they
can be whatever you want them to

1253
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:11,840
be.
I just think there's so many of

1254
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:13,800
like our personalities, our
behavior.

1255
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:16,960
And I sometimes look, and I know
this isn't going to sound crazy.

1256
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:21,320
So I think you're a chameleon,
you're a parrot, you're a

1257
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:25,120
cheater, you know, and I sort
of, can I say what I think I am.

1258
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:26,200
Yeah, girlfriend.
What?

1259
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:30,440
And I kind of think like I'm the
lioness, you know?

1260
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:33,760
I sometimes think of myself like
it because then I like my

1261
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:35,120
little.
I'm protective.

1262
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:37,800
Yeah, fiercely protective.
But I also like to hunt.

1263
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,480
You know, the lion will defend
its territory, but I like to

1264
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:43,040
hunt.
So I sort of think of myself

1265
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:45,200
like that.
But yeah, we put silly things in

1266
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:46,520
it.
But what do you think?

1267
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:48,200
Yeah.
So I think you're right.

1268
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:50,960
I mean, if if you look at the
fact that the the the lioness

1269
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:55,160
primarily above all in anything
else, it's about looking after

1270
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:57,000
the Cubs.
So that's the first.

1271
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:00,400
Thing totally.
It's the one that that goes with

1272
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:04,000
with something, but that I could
tell you had something that you

1273
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:05,960
were holding back then from when
I said that I'm not going to,

1274
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:06,680
I'm not going.
To take.

1275
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:09,400
It.
Come on, come on, come on.

1276
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:12,080
So let's let's let's.
Let's check.

1277
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,200
Yeah.
So when, when when you spoke

1278
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,920
just.
And yeah, when I said to you

1279
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:18,760
about like kind of.
I'm not really nude.

1280
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:20,120
Sometimes there's something that
happens.

1281
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:21,200
Yeah.
Yeah, it does stand out.

1282
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:23,360
Yeah.
So when I said about protecting

1283
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:26,160
the cousin, you went, yeah, and
that's kind of compressed lip

1284
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,040
for a minute that.
Well, for a moment that is

1285
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,360
generally when somebody agrees
with you, but they're holding

1286
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:33,480
something back.
So it might be truthful.

1287
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:35,880
You're totally right.
You're totally right.

1288
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:39,280
Because I'll tell you something,
I walked off The Apprentice

1289
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:44,080
publicly in front of and I am
aware that this is a platformer

1290
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:49,840
stage and I walked off.
I didn't like the whole process.

1291
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:54,280
You know, it wasn't for me.
And I wasn't able to speak to my

1292
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:56,440
family in the way that I wanted
to.

1293
01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:03,680
And I am not going to do things
for my career at the expense of

1294
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:06,480
my children.
That's just not going to work,

1295
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:09,240
you know?
And I came out publicly saying

1296
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:14,720
this and it was a big second.
It's a very difficult thing to

1297
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:18,400
get over, you know, saying
something like this in public

1298
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:19,920
and then you judged and
whatever.

1299
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:22,360
But also at the same time, I am
like that.

1300
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:26,680
That's just how I work.
And I am a mummy cub and I

1301
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:30,240
protect my cublings and and now
that they're growing up and

1302
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:31,640
everything, it changes things
for me.

1303
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:37,600
But yeah, that's so, you know,
you've you've unpacked quite a

1304
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:40,880
especially that it was so public
a thing in my life.

1305
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:43,360
That was a sole point.
Like it wasn't, you know, it

1306
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,520
wasn't an easy thing.
Sorry, didn't mean to, didn't

1307
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:48,680
mean.
To no, I'm glad you did, because

1308
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:50,920
it's just you do.
It's correct, you know.

1309
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:54,440
So sometimes, like I said, I
don't usually watch people and

1310
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:56,480
assess them, but sometimes, you
know, I will.

1311
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:57,960
Spot the kids.
Oh, hang on that.

1312
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,920
Yeah, that that was a little
indication and, you know, I saw

1313
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:03,200
that.
But yeah, you know, the the

1314
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:06,640
whole kind of looking after the
Cubs, it is, you know, like a

1315
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:10,920
primary objective for a lioness.
But then the hunting side of it

1316
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:14,760
as well is also something that
you've got that that is

1317
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:17,360
providing for the Cubs as well
as yourself, keeping yourself

1318
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:19,200
sustained.
And then you've also got the

1319
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:20,960
fact that it's the defence as
well.

1320
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:26,080
So, but what I can say is that
there is also a pack and there

1321
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,560
are other people in the pack
that you have a very select few

1322
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:32,760
kind of friends or associates
that you know.

1323
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,480
There is a pack and I'm fiercely
protective of the pack.

1324
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:39,680
And there's also the hunt is so
much fun, you know?

1325
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:40,960
Yeah.
Yeah.

1326
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:42,160
And I think that's why you like
this.

1327
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:45,200
I think you like finding guests,
different guests and exciting

1328
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,600
guests of you know, kind of who
who can I have on who's going to

1329
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:51,800
really kind of and you won't.
Believe this, you know, but I've

1330
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:55,440
got a team that that do the, the
outreach thing and I, I, I

1331
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:58,040
direct them very carefully about
what I want and whatever.

1332
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:01,640
And, and when I originally got
this team, they would, they

1333
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:04,800
would do a LinkedIn outreach.
It was very, very corporate.

1334
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,800
They've never done podcasting in
this way with these kind of

1335
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:11,320
guests and it was very serious
very this and I had to take them

1336
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:14,800
from doing that and train them
and I said, listen, you are

1337
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:20,080
going hunting.
That is you need to bring home

1338
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:25,280
the guests that are like this.
That is the goal, you know, And

1339
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:28,320
when I sort of put it into the
head, so it's always like, I

1340
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:31,120
suppose you become what you
think you are.

1341
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:35,120
What animal would you be then?
Me I I have an affinity with

1342
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:38,200
wolves for some reason.
I love wolves.

1343
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:40,680
I was born in wolves.
Just stick wonderful pictures.

1344
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:43,640
That was probably all originated
because the local football team

1345
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:44,760
being wolves and that kind of
thing.

1346
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:48,000
But I've always just had this
real kind of fascination with

1347
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:49,920
wolves.
Now, whether it's the the kind

1348
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:54,640
of lone wolf kind of, you know,
persona or what, I don't know.

1349
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:58,840
But yeah, it's just it's always
been something that I've had

1350
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:00,600
this in my mind for many, many
years.

1351
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:04,000
The lion might be the king of
the jungle, but the lion will

1352
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:06,000
still be trained in the circus
and the wolf won't.

1353
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:09,640
And that's why I kind of like
the the wolf.

1354
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,600
And on that note, thank you so
much.

1355
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:18,480
This has been a like mind I
can't even describe like a mind

1356
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:23,560
expansion exercise, you know,
of, of self-awareness of it's

1357
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:25,760
just interesting.
I find all of these topics and

1358
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:28,400
I'm going to be, oh, thank you,
reading your books.

1359
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:32,040
Well, hope and find it
beneficial and yeah.

1360
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:35,040
How could they not?
Well, if they want to know more

1361
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:37,400
about if you don't mind me doing
a quick plug, then that'd.

1362
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:39,040
Be great, go for it.
Plug plug actually.

1363
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:43,280
Doing for the first time ever.
Yeah, I'm doing spy intelligence

1364
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:47,000
officer training from all the
world's leading agencies.

1365
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:48,560
What does that mean?
What is that?

1366
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:51,320
So it's the psychological
training given to intelligence

1367
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:53,840
officers with everything from
mental resilience right up to

1368
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:56,280
strategic thinking.
So all the different kind of,

1369
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:58,920
and I hate to use the term
thinking outside the box, but

1370
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:02,280
that that kind of thinking
outside the box, the, the whole

1371
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:07,840
not, not just mental resilience,
but the kind of the, the way an

1372
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:11,000
intelligence officer is trained
to think differently to most

1373
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:12,960
other people.
We've got all the world's

1374
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,640
leading intelligence agencies
and military guys coming in.

1375
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:18,760
CIA, MI 6, KGB, Mossag.
We've got the.

1376
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:21,080
Local.
First time this has ever

1377
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:25,160
happened coming down in Dorset
in an army barracks that we've

1378
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:28,200
had for a couple of days and we
we've got the tickets on sale.

1379
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:30,880
In an army barracks, literally.
That's cool.

1380
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:31,640
That's.
Really nice.

1381
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:34,240
Yeah, we've got some brilliant
guest speakers coming in and

1382
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:37,000
this training has never been
offered to the public before.

1383
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:38,800
I don't know if it's ever going
to be offered again.

1384
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:41,120
It depends on the response.
We've got some brilliant

1385
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:43,000
exhibitors coming down and
showing some of the how.

1386
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:44,120
Many days is it?
How does?

1387
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:47,840
Only over 2 days.
It's 2 full days but. 27th and

1388
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:50,840
28th of October. 27th and 28th
of October.

1389
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:52,240
Yeah.
And this has never been done

1390
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:54,520
before, so I'm really hoping
that it goes well.

1391
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:57,840
And yeah, we'll, we'll see
whether the people like it or

1392
01:07:57,840 --> 01:07:59,480
not.
On the other hand, it might be

1393
01:07:59,480 --> 01:08:01,360
down to the Home Office that
might come down and say you're

1394
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:03,920
not allowed to do that again.
Yeah, that's, I say, how much do

1395
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:06,720
you want everyone to learn?
But that's a fascinating thing.

1396
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:08,200
It sounds really good.
I'm going to look into it.

1397
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:08,680
Oh.
Brilliant.

1398
01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:09,960
Thank you.
Well, the website is

1399
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:14,680
www.spyq.co.uk.
Brilliant.

1400
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:16,240
Thank you.
Thank you so much.

1401
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:16,760
Thank you.