Gossip, Trust & the Hidden Rules of Human Connection

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Robin, welcome to be on the
Boardroom.

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Great to be here.
You have a huge brain full of

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incredible information and we're
going to pick some of that out

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and learn that that that's what
the goal is for today.

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We're going to be learning.
So 1st and probably the most

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important question, what is the
maximum amount of friends one

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should have?
Well, the official limit on the

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number of friends and family, I
hasten to add that you can have,

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is 150 people, which is Dunbar's
number.

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So that's your extended family
and all your friends.

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It's the one way to think about
it, is all the people who at

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least once a year you try to
keep contact with.

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In the old days when people sent
Christmas cards, it was exactly

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who you sent Christmas cards to.
They've totted up everybody in

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the family that you sent a card
to.

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It comes out to about 150 A. 150
still scenes are quite a lot if

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you if you can't see you're
counting friends and family and

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and Co workers in here.
Oh, Co workers can be friends.

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I mean, that's the difference.
Out beyond 150 is another layer

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that we think of as
acquaintances, and so a lot of

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the people you work with would
be in that sphere, as it were.

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But some of the people you work
with become friends because you

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get on well with them, You see
them afterwards.

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OK, so when people have like 300
plus friends on Facebook, that's

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not true.
Well, it's not true anyway, for

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two reasons.
One is the average number of

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friends on Facebook is actually
149 according to the last

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census.
And that was 61 million Facebook

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pages, right?
That's not to say that some

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people don't have more than
that, but what they do is they

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do what we do in everyday life
is they're including as friends

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because that's how Facebook and
social media, but.

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They not find really.
They but really what they're

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including is acquaintances.
So acquaintances, people, we'd

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go and have a beer with them
after work, but we would never

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invite them home.
That's the big difference. 150

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you would invite home.
Could acquaintance be someone

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you've come across?
Just someone at Yes.

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Oh, yes, I know you, Yes.
But I think acquaintance is a

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bit more than just AI met you
once at a party and, and, and we

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exchanged phone numbers that you
actually seen, see them on a

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regular basis.
And you would go out and do

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something occasionally with
them, even if it's only go and

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have a have a beer.
Because beyond the, the so, so

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the acquaintances layer runs out
to about 500 people.

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And then beyond that is one more
layer which includes people

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whose faces you can put names to
basically.

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So they.
Sometimes.

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Sometimes.
Well, no.

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That anybody else is beyond that
layer.

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We can't put a phase name to
the.

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Phase.
Well, it, it, you know, I mean

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these, these things have a range
of variations.

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So, you know, OK, the average
size number of friends and

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family that people have is 150,
but the range of variation is

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probably from about 100 to about
250.

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So introverts it would be about
100.

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Extroverts it would be about
200.

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OK, So what about that kind of
variation?

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Builders, you know, get the
builders around.

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What?
What?

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So they, the group beyond the
150's, You recognise their

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faces, They hike to them in the
supermarket.

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Yeah.
Hello.

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Hello.
And if you went and had a beer

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with the builders, they'd
probably count in the

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acquaintances.
Length, OK, so that's.

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If they turned up once, you'd
probably recognise them in the

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street.
If you saw them again but and

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you remember who it who it was,
you could sort of put a put a

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name to the face really.
But that takes you out to about

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1500 people.
Wow, Well, there's no ways you

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can remember all those people's
names, I mean.

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No, no, it's literally that is
the number of faces you can put

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a name to.
And a lot of them are sort of,

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dare I say it, weird people
like, you know, presidents of

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the United States.
Of course, of course I was going

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to ask you celebrities.
Celebrities.

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TV personalities, all that kind
of thing.

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But you wouldn't.
You wouldn't.

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And it's that those
relationships are one way.

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You know who they are, but they
have no idea who you are real

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realistically at that level.
And as you come in, the

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acquaintances lay you both know
who each other, but you don't

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really have a meaningful
relationship and you certainly

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wouldn't lend them £50.
OK, that's.

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The big difference?
That's a huge difference.

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OK, so then if we go back to the
intimate circle, why do some

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friendships last a lifetime and
others not?

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They're still your friends, so
why is it?

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And that, well, that's because
friendships are kind of on a

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scale of intimacy or emotional
closeness.

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So if you think about the 150
friends and family you have,

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actually you can easily identify
within them a series of

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gradations of friendship.
You can see this beautifully in

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terms of who you phone most
often or who you post to most

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often on Facebook, for example,
right?

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It turns out there's a series of
layers that occur at very

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specific numbers as a layer of
five, what we call the shoulders

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to cry on friends, which are
kind of like your support group,

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as it were, that you'd go to.
Inside the shoulders to cry on.

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Yeah, it is.
It is, you know, if you when

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your world falls apart, they're
the people who who will pick you

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up and put you back on your
feet.

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Then out beyond that, there's a
lair at 15, which is known as

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the sympathy group because
they're the group of people who

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if they died tomorrow, you would
be genuinely upset about not

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just sorry that they've died,
but you would be genuinely

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upset.
And that seems to be about 15

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people.
And then beyond that, there's a

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layer at about 50, which I
always identify as your kind of

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weekend BBQ friends.
If you're going to have a if

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you're going to have a dinner
party.

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It would come with a 15.
Layer, you know, three or four

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people for a, for a dinner
party.

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If you're going to have a big
slightly bigger party for your

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birthday in the garden in the
summer with a BBQ, you would go

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to that layer of 50 and then
your 150 is what I call your

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kind of barn.
It's for and funerals group.

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Yes, they will say the bigger
group.

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Once in a lifetime events, they
will come to those.

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Yeah, because my husband was
actually asking me.

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I mean, it's very strange in a
way to put numbers to these

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emotional things.
I didn't really think about it

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Like, okay, the intimate group
of five and then we go beyond

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and you've got the group of 50
that you invited a party.

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But it makes sense.
Yes, it it's kind of spookishly

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accurate.
I know it.

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It's frightening, you say, But I
mean, if you ask, yeah, as we

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have done many of our studies,
you ask people to rate these

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people in these circles for
their emotional closeness to

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them.
You can see this beautifully

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laid out.
They're they feel much more

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emotionally because they will,
they will give a higher rating

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to people in that inner core of
five to say the people in the

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150 or the people out in the 500
layer of acquaintances.

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And you're right for that, for
that garden party, I'm having to

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say how many or who should we
invite?

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It is about, you know, it is,
it's just the right sweet spot

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of 50.
But then you're right at a

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wedding, is it?
About 150.

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Yes, you have.
You might, you know, I mean it's

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other cultures.
I mean Asian cultures tend to

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have very big weddings, but what
they're doing is they're going

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out into that layer of
acquaintances very often because

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there's no family out in that
layer of acquaintances, right?

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All your in laws and laws or
whatever proper word is for your

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genuine biological family are
all contained within the 150

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right?
And we don't have one of the

150
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oddities is that that extends
out to about second cousins,

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ish, right?
And no culture in the world has

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a kinship term for anybody who's
more remote, biologically more

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remote than that.
So most of them just have

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different kinds of cousins.
And that's that's as far as they

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go.
After that, you're strangers.

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Well, you're not strangers, but
you're not our kin.

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Yeah.
Well, you're not kissing Kin.

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Yeah, you're there.
Yeah.

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Yeah.
OK, so let's say you have

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someone that you meet and you
want them to be closer to you.

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You want them to like you, but
you want it to happen faster.

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How do you do that then?
The whole thing revolves around

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how often you see people, so
another way of defining the

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layers is simply in terms of the
frequency with which you see

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them.
And the IT turns out that the

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layers are defined by very
specific frequencies of contact.

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And those frequencies of contact
are evident not only in face to

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face contact, but in how often
you phone these people, how

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often you even post to them on
Facebook.

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Making me really worried about
how I treat.

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People.
So that inner core of five

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people are people who you, you
generally generally see at least

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once a week, right?
At least once a week.

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And the people in the 150
circle, it's at least once a

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year.
Can I ask you a question?

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So do you really have this,
these, these 5 intimate close

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people, more or less?
Do you know?

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Because I'm a bloke.
Come on.

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Well, blokes have more boys have
more diffuse kind of anonymous

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kind of relationships.
They, they live in a kind of

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clubby world compared to girls.
Girls have much more intimate

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dyadic relationships.
They can specify much more where

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people lie.
Whereas boys it's, it really is

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anonymous.
It's it, it's out of sight, out

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of mind.
If Jimmy goes off to Thailand

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for the rest of the the
everybody you know who used to

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go drinking with him or climbing
mountains or whatever they used

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to do together would shrug their
shoulders and say, well, it was

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fun.
While he said.

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Now, who's next in the queue for
membership of our little?

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Little club, so it varies
actually.

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Oh yes, yeah, yeah.
So these are dynamic.

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I mean, you can't do much about
your family.

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You can throw them out, but
yeah.

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And it does happen surprisingly
often, but the but it, and this

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is true even to be fair of
family relationships.

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They slide up and down the scale
from one the nearest and most

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emotionally close person to you
to your 150th person.

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People come and go through the
layers basically, and that's as

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a consequence of how much time
you invest in them.

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OK, so how do you make them like
you faster instead?

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I mean there would be people say
I really like that person, I

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want them to like me more and
quicker.

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OK, what do you do then?
You you.

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Well, there are several caveats,
but the basic thing is to spend

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more time with them, right?
Because it's all dependent on

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spending time in fact, to get
somebody to who is outside your

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150.
So somebody you've, you've

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basically just met a stranger
into at least your 15 layer,

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your regular sort of social
little clique takes about 200

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hours of face to face contact,
right?

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00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:09,160
It's hard work.
And that's partly because you've

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also got to drop some.
You've got to drop somebody.

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If you want to bring somebody
else in, Somebody's got to fall

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out of your circle.
Brutal.

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Right.
And you see this most clearly

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demonstrated in romantic
relationships because for

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obvious reasons, not many of us
fall in love with the people in

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our inner innermost circle,
right?

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They come in from way outside
the solar system.

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Usually they're strangers, but
very often we're introduced to

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them by member of Oxford Circles
so that you bring them right

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into the centre and you've now
got six people instead of five.

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But this person is taking,
because of the nature of the

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relationship, is taking up twice
as much time.

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So they're taking up two units.
So you've actually got 7, seven

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units of person time where you
should only have 5.

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And what do you do?
You drop two people.

229
00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,280
So you reduce the size of that
circle to 4 and what you usually

230
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,520
do is drop a family member and a
friend, right?

231
00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,000
Because the that inner circle
will typically consist of two

232
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,800
family members, brothers,
sisters, parents, whatever

233
00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,120
granny.
That's a huge price a person

234
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,720
spending.
Just shows how expensive romance

235
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:23,600
is.
That's so expensive.

236
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,360
And if you think about, I mean,
if you're a consultant and you

237
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,560
think about your hourly rate and
you're talking about this

238
00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:31,080
investment of all these hours,
it's like I never thought about

239
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,240
this like this.
I have to say, this is freaking

240
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,240
me out.
But it's, I mean, it's, yeah,

241
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,600
it's quite disturbing.
Yes, yes, it's.

242
00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,840
Disturbing actually.
So you have to invest more time.

243
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:44,200
You want them to like you.
Yes.

244
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:45,440
You have to invest.
More time.

245
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,360
There's a catch here.
And that's, that's that's what I

246
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,280
call them the Jane Austen
problem.

247
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,520
OK, right.
So everybody, what makes a good

248
00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,320
friendship is this phenomenon
known as homophily.

249
00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,440
We tend to like people who are
very similar to us, like not

250
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:08,760
only in kind of traits we can't
don't have any control over, you

251
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,640
know, like our sex or our
personality or our age.

252
00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,760
These we tend to prefer people
with the same sex, the same age,

253
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,040
the same psychological
personality, particularly on the

254
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,240
extrovert introvert.
So introverts prefer introverts,

255
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,000
extroverts prefer same
ethnicity.

256
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:30,240
Say, you know, might be race, it
might be just people from your

257
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,880
village as opposed to the next
door village, if you like.

258
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,480
So those things we kind of can't
do anything about, but there's a

259
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:41,400
bunch of things which we acquire
culturally, we learn them and

260
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,640
which define us as a member of a
cultural sub community.

261
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,400
And these are what we call the
seven pillars of friendship.

262
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,880
So they're like a supermarket
barcode of The Who you are.

263
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,360
They're the things you like, you
know, the sense of humour, the

264
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,440
music you like, your hobbies and
interests, your moron political

265
00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,240
views, these kinds of things.
And what we're looking for is

266
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,920
somebody who resembles us as
much as possible, right?

267
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,760
So there you are in a classic
Jane Austen situation.

268
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,280
Everybody has an ideal Mr.
Darcy.

269
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,120
He's rich, he's famous, you
know, he's got connections, big

270
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,720
house, all this kind of stuff.
Entertaining.

271
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,400
Tick, tick, tick.
Tick, tick.

272
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,880
So everybody wants to marry Mr.
Darcy.

273
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,640
Well, or be friends with Mr.
Darcy, as the case may be.

274
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,440
The problem is Mr. Darcy has a
choice, right?

275
00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,400
So of all the people, he can't
be friends with everybody.

276
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:31,520
So he's only going to choose
one.

277
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,560
What do the rest of you do?
Well, you end up marrying, as

278
00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,080
the case may be, being friends
with the curate who's boring,

279
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:46,320
not very handsome, poor, so.
So most of our friends and and

280
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,240
and and even romantic partners,
I dare say, are friends of

281
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,840
convenience until we find
somebody better.

282
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,960
So that's why they people can
easily drop a friend.

283
00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,360
You know, that's why you know, I
I for my romantic partner, for

284
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,680
my future partners.
I'm not compromising on this

285
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,320
because it's possibly one of the
most important decisions of my

286
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:12,480
life and I must be genuine and I
must go for the right person or

287
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,240
I'm in trouble forever.
Yes.

288
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,440
Well, it, it turns out that as
with friendships, so with

289
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,640
romantic partners is the more
similar you are culturally and

290
00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,760
so on the things you have in
common, the longer the

291
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,760
relationship will last.
And we actually when we first

292
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,440
meet somebody and we, we
actually showed this going in

293
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,920
effect going on, on in telephone
call data.

294
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:39,880
So phone call logs and very,
very big samples and in three

295
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:44,880
different countries that we,
when we first meet somebody, we

296
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,840
make a big effort either to see
them or we phone them a lot.

297
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:54,320
And it turns out that we could
predict both how long the

298
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,440
relationship the friendship
would last and it's intimacy

299
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,920
that say which layer it would
line on the basis of the

300
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:05,000
frequency with which that person
was called phoned in the 1st

301
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,200
4:00 to.
Six weeks.

302
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,000
After after that number, first a
meet appears in the call long,

303
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,680
right?
So we make this big effort to

304
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,240
engage them, find out all that
we're ticking the boxes all the

305
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:21,440
time and we kind of get no think
I'll try somewhere else or yes,

306
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:22,680
perfect, perfect.
Yeah.

307
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,000
The stronger that energy because
also it has to last the

308
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,120
lifetime.
So it it, you know, dissipates

309
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,440
over time, maybe a little bit,
but it needs to kind of keep you

310
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,880
growing the fuel.
Well, there is the weird thing

311
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,680
that people converge with each
other.

312
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,320
They do it with friends as well
as with romantic partners.

313
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,120
So if you if you see a lot of
each other or you live together,

314
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,920
inevitably you tend to share
experiences.

315
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:45,680
So you're kind of.
Converging.

316
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,360
Your interest because you're
you're, you're 7 pillars as it

317
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,080
were.
Although they what they really

318
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,680
seem to point to is where you
grew up, your teenage years

319
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,960
where you learnt how to be a
member of the community,

320
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,040
whatever that community might
be.

321
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,200
There's something about that
period in life then becomes a

322
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,560
benchmark.
You never quite the music of

323
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,480
that period, you never quite
forget.

324
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,560
It's true, that's true.
It's the real marker for that,

325
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,319
isn't it?
But but of course, you know, we

326
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:20,280
have different experiences as we
go through life.

327
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,800
So your, your, your, you know,
your musical taste may change,

328
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,720
your sense of humour may change,
whatever your moral views might

329
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,240
change.
But part of that is trying to

330
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,360
bed into a new community.
So as you move, you know, your

331
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,840
friendship circles change,
moving to a job in a different

332
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,760
city or a different country or
something you're trying to embed

333
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,960
into it.
And you know, you adjust your, I

334
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,440
mean, one, one of the components
of this is your dialect, right?

335
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,840
And therefore your accent that
identifies where you, where you

336
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:57,400
grew up and children from the
age of five know whether your

337
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,440
accent is the same as mine or
not, right?

338
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,040
Whether it's the local one or
it's, it's somebody from

339
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:04,400
outside.
We're incredibly good at

340
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,400
identifying them.
But of course, if we move

341
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:11,400
somewhere else, then we try to
bed in and you get this

342
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,480
phenomenon which is known as
Mid-Atlantic, which was very

343
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,840
common, particularly in the 70s
and 80s when a lot of people

344
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,480
moved to America from Britain
and they tried to become more

345
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,240
Americanised.
You had this sort of semi

346
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,640
Americanised thing.
Yes, I know.

347
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,320
I mean, I did that.
I mean, I came came to Britain

348
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,640
when I was 12, Right.
So I had a completely different

349
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,400
accent.
Yeah.

350
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,760
And you had to.
I had to reinvent yourself.

351
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,200
I had to reinvent myself.
But I never completely lost that

352
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:42,440
accent.
So my accent doesn't.

353
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,800
Nobody can ever figure out where
I come from because I don't

354
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,800
sound like a a native English,
Yeah.

355
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:54,600
Because I can hear your, I can
hear a bit of that, yeah.

356
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,160
But it's nice not to lose that
because it's also part of you.

357
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,520
And although you're reinventing
and you're adapting and you

358
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,040
trying to fit in, as long as
it's school, you know you're

359
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:04,480
trying to fit in and that you
don't.

360
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,400
Want to fit in too much?
Yeah, you're much better at

361
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:12,680
learning a new accent in the
kind of well, up to up to say

362
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,760
the end of the teens.
And it's the younger you are,

363
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:19,840
the better you learn it.
But after the teens you in your

364
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:24,360
20s onwards, you never quite
learn the local accent to

365
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:27,080
perfection.
People, local speakers, can

366
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,560
always tell just the way you
pronounce the odd word, or the

367
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,680
odd syllable, or the way you use
a word in the wrong place.

368
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,320
OK, can I ask you this question?
And this this wasn't one that we

369
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,080
discussed in the pre the pre
podcast call.

370
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,360
But let's just say, you know,
we're talking about fitting in

371
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:50,400
here in order to make the the
group comfortable with you and

372
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,960
all that sort of thing.
But what if you're the type of

373
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,840
personality that sort of comes
in and is a bit of a like, you

374
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:02,000
know, and and you know, they're
interested in that a little bit

375
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,960
scared, but but then you don't
really want to necessarily fit

376
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,320
in because you like you are that
sort of person that isn't a

377
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,640
fitter inner, if you know what I
mean.

378
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,480
There are some people like this
is a kind of version of the Mr.

379
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,000
Darcy effect, you know, because
you're being parachuted in from

380
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:24,520
far outside the village and
you're very exotic, the way you

381
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,240
do things, your accent, whatever
and and the way you behave.

382
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,760
And that does have a certain
attraction, but.

383
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:34,160
So that can work.
It can work.

384
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,280
It can work forever.
But it's a high risk strategy.

385
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,320
Yes, it's a high risk strategy.
You, you know, if you want to an

386
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,480
easy life, try and meld in with
everybody else.

387
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:48,880
But if if you're very, you have
to be very confident, I think as

388
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,680
an extrovert and you have to be
very sure of how you can handle

389
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:58,480
situations and people, because
people are very easily put off

390
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,040
by boastfulness, which has no
substance.

391
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,560
Yes, you know so and the same.
Can you call it narcissism and

392
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,880
all that sort of that, all that
traffic?

393
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,600
You know, those those sort of
people can be very successful,

394
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:17,400
but by and large they're
successful as bullies rather

395
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,000
than as people managed.
So what's the difference between

396
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:21,520
that?
Someone who's genuinely, let's

397
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:27,000
say the exotic confident doesn't
mean badly to anyone is just by

398
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,840
nature such a person.
And then the one that is

399
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,000
maliciously, well, I don't even
know the difference because

400
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,200
maybe they're not trying to be
malicious, but maybe they just

401
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,520
are a bit what what is that
thing that is?

402
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,560
So it's a.
Charismatic leadership actually

403
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:44,440
is what it boils down to, and
we're very prone to following

404
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:50,520
people who appear charismatic
and appear to have gifts that

405
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,280
are greater than the ones we
have.

406
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,000
They make good leaders to
follow, you know, and we do it

407
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:02,600
all the time, pop stars,
celebrities, you know, people

408
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:09,040
who invent stuff and become, you
know, CEOs, charismatic CEOs of,

409
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:14,080
of a, of a big organization.
And, and that kind of has a

410
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:19,560
place in our social world
because in the end, social world

411
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,720
is about cooperation and
diplomacy.

412
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:30,280
But you can't have sort of 500
Braves in the organization.

413
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,080
You've got to have some chiefs
somewhere to provide kind of

414
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,600
direction and strategic things.
And that's what your charismatic

415
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,400
lead to does.
So that then becomes a kind of

416
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,920
focus and, and we kind of do it
all, you know, why do we have a

417
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,280
monarchy here?
It's not in itself very

418
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:45,760
important.
It is a figurehead.

419
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,520
It's a flag, you know, and you
can sort of attach yourself to

420
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:56,720
the flag as, as kind of standing
for, you know, your wider

421
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,640
community.
And some, some countries take

422
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,920
this very seriously.
If you think of the United

423
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,560
States in school every morning,
they pledge allegiance to the

424
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,600
flag, you know, as a school.
And I'm sure it has this effect

425
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,160
of creating this sense of
community in a way which we no

426
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,240
longer do.
Yeah.

427
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,600
Sense of community is important.
It is important.

428
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:25,560
So just going back to the the
whole acquaintance thing, if

429
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,760
just to clarify.
So if you want to someone to

430
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,400
upgrade from acquaintance to
close circle, it's about the

431
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,000
time you have to invest the
time.

432
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,640
And then is it so that some
people are just naturally better

433
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,520
at making friends, having
friends, keeping friends and

434
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,440
some just don't have those
skills or do we?

435
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:41,640
Are we all born with the same
thing?

436
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,840
We're, we're definitely not all
born with the same skills

437
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,600
because the skills, the skills
of managing a social

438
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,760
environment, whether it's an
organization or just your

439
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,840
friendship circle or even your
family and even your romantic

440
00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:02,360
relationships all hinge around a
core set of cognitive abilities,

441
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,160
which we all share, but not to
the same extent.

442
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,720
They're quite variable.
And now the key ones are

443
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,960
probably the ability to
understand what somebody else is

444
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:21,480
thinking right now.
The the way that's viewed is we

445
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,120
have we we're very good at sort
of thinking through a chain.

446
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:28,720
So I'm wondering what you're
thinking about what Jim over

447
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,760
there is?
Supposing and what somebody?

448
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:32,600
That's right.
That's right.

449
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,280
It is chess actually, Exactly.
So now, and, and that's a very

450
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,680
good analogy because clearly,
you know, superstars in chess,

451
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,920
what makes them superstars is
they can think through many

452
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,680
successive moves.
Well, that's true, yes.

453
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:53,000
Whereas you know a a, a, a, a
very bad chess player like me.

454
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:56,480
You know, just you.
Think one move, one move.

455
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,520
So the natural, the the the, the
range.

456
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,840
Although the average mentalising
abilities allows us to handle 5

457
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,320
people's mind states, including
my own.

458
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,040
So that's me thinking about four
other people.

459
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,200
The range of variation is from
about 3:00 to about 6 probably,

460
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:18,520
right?
So some people, and that has

461
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:23,480
very, very wide consequences.
So one of the things that we've

462
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:30,000
shown is that people who have
the average capacity of 5 might

463
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,320
be able to handle 5 Minor states
prefer fiction, fictional

464
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:39,320
stories which have five or four
of them, four mind states going

465
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,920
on in this in the same thing.
And and the the place to see

466
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,680
this is Shakespeare.
It's absolutely wonderful about

467
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,560
it.
You can see the number of

468
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,200
speaking parts he has on the
stage at anyone time is never

469
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,680
more than 4.
Incredible.

470
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,280
Right.
But if they're talking about

471
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,640
somebody's mind state, Hamlet
who's not there, it's Hamlet's

472
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,680
friends talking about his
Hamlet's mind state, and he's

473
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:02,720
doing whatever he was doing
somewhere else.

474
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,200
He reduces the number to three,
and what he's doing is making

475
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,240
sure he doesn't overload his
audience's abilities.

476
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:10,520
Right?
But smart.

477
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,800
Smart Wow.
Three the the the people normal

478
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,240
human adults.
There's nothing unusual about

479
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,040
them as they were
psychologically.

480
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,320
The the lower limit is about
handling 3 mind states, and

481
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,680
that's perfectly fine.
You can get by in the social

482
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,560
world and conversations and all
these things quite happily with

483
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,720
with 3rd order mentalising as
it's called.

484
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,120
But it does mean that a 5th
order mentalising story just

485
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:41,080
becomes incomprehensible to you.
So you like stories which

486
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,360
involve only a couple of
people's mind states.

487
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,960
And this applies to our sense
preferences for humour as well.

488
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,840
You know, those with with 5th
order mentalising prefer long

489
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:56,080
complicated jokes with several
characters in them, whereas

490
00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,720
people with sort of 3rd order
mind states capacity will will

491
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,880
prefer 3rd order jokes that say
only two two characters in in

492
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,560
the joke.
Such a scientific way of

493
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,400
thinking about such things in
life.

494
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,240
I can't.
So, so there's, there's that.

495
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,280
And what we tend to do is pick
people who are similar, mind

496
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,640
state, mentalise, incompetence.
The other thing is, is capacity

497
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:25,040
to inhibit, inhibit your selfish
desires, your tendency to grab

498
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,040
the biggest thing on the plate,
because if you do that too much,

499
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,240
then you just drive everybody
away, right?

500
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,360
So if you can't, it's, you know,
to keep every to keep everybody

501
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:39,760
round, round, round the table,
you, you need to be able to

502
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,560
inhibit yourself from grabbing
everything that you want and in

503
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,360
order to allow them to have a
bit of a share of.

504
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,920
There's a lot of social
awareness to keeping these

505
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,240
friends.
So it's hard work.

506
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,480
People vary a lot on both these
traits and therefore, you know

507
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,280
it that has implications for
both the stability of

508
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,040
relationships.
You know, people who have people

509
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,240
who have very poor inhibitory
capacities and, and this appears

510
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,120
very early in life.
You know you can.

511
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:16,200
You can predict people's
relationship stabilities in in

512
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:21,760
their 40s from how good they are
at not grabbing the sweets on

513
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,120
the table when they've been told
at the age of 5.

514
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:30,280
Wow, parenting one O 1.
Well, it the problem is it's pre

515
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,240
parenting.
I mean there's those are

516
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,960
exceptional and there tends to
be a genetic component to it.

517
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:43,840
And you know, The thing is
beyond change, as it were.

518
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,840
For those sort of people.
It's extremely hard for them to

519
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,600
learn to to be tolerant in that
sense.

520
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,640
They just fly off the handle all
the time and these kinds of

521
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,520
things.
Can ask another question then

522
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,240
there are things going around
social media and actually I've

523
00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:02,520
I've liked some of these
sometimes I'm going to admit

524
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:07,400
this now where it's like, oh,
you know, sometimes I'm just

525
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,920
happy coming home to my pet.
Yes, I just cat or dog.

526
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,880
It's like just much rather spend
time with them than having to

527
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,280
socialise.
And I mean I just friends are

528
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,400
nice and everything but it's
hard work and then your cat or

529
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,280
your dog nice pets, you know,
watching some birds.

530
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,560
I mean I'm getting older.
I'm not ashamed to say it.

531
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,280
Sometimes you just want to chill
out and and not see these

532
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:27,640
friends.
Is that OK?

533
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,240
But it is OK.
There's there's absolutely no

534
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:36,120
prescription why you have to
have people in your 5 closest

535
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,920
relationships or your 150
friends and family you're

536
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,160
perfectly entitled to.
You have your pets.

537
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,480
I'm not saying never, I'm just
saying sometimes, you know?

538
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:47,360
Yeah, yeah.
No, no.

539
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,200
But I but I think that's partly
because cats and dogs, because

540
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,160
of the way we've domesticated
them, are so responsive to us

541
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:01,240
and so giving in that sense that
they're the perfect friend.

542
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,640
They're never in a bad mood.
They know exactly and and you

543
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,480
know, they're, they're like the
perfect friend.

544
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,680
And so the temptation, you know,
whereas normal people vary and

545
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,640
they have their own interests.
You know, they want a share of

546
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,160
the of the cake on the table.
In fact, they'd rather have a

547
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,840
slightly bigger share than you,
whereas I was going to say your

548
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,080
dog.
The dog will let you have half,

549
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:25,520
but actually he probably
wouldn't.

550
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,600
But anyway.
But you'd happily let them have

551
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,520
that, this thing.
You sacrifice yourself, wouldn't

552
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:32,320
you?
For your pet?

553
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:37,040
Your friend.
And I think that's not uncommon,

554
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,880
you know that that people have
very close attachments.

555
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,800
I was happy actually to see the
posts on Facebook.

556
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:47,000
So I thought, oh, it's like me.
So I wanted to ask you about

557
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,360
there's something I read on your
LinkedIn which is about gossip

558
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,400
and that that's a really lovely
good thing.

559
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,600
Why would you say something like
that?

560
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:01,200
Because gossip, gossip for me, I
do find sometimes when I go into

561
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,600
these circles and you know,
chatting and, and it tends to be

562
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,040
actually a lot, a lot of the
time, you know, the sort of the,

563
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,400
the mum with the kids crowds
and, and then the gossip starts

564
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,760
and there's someone being sold
at all times, you know, and I

565
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,640
always why?
Well, well, this all hinges

566
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,640
around how you define gossip,
right?

567
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:28,080
So that kind of horrid sense of
gossip, right, wicked sense of

568
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,640
gossip, is actually relatively
recent.

569
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,400
It's not the original meaning of
the word gossip.

570
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:38,640
So the word gossip comes as a
corruption of God, Sib, right?

571
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:44,080
So the peer group equivalent of
your godparents, so the people

572
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,200
who look after you and you hang
out with, and therefore the

573
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,920
older sense of gossiping is
literally in English, is

574
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,800
literally hanging over the
garden fence, passing time with

575
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,880
your neighbors, Right?
All inconsequential, probably.

576
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,600
You know, doing no more than
saying it's a lovely day today.

577
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,080
Just.
Hanging out The problem if with

578
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,480
anything in a in an evolutionary
biological world is it Can it

579
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,160
always be exploited for both
good and bad and and like many

580
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,560
things, this capacity to pass
information.

581
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,440
So there is a sense in which
gossip, this positive sense of

582
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,800
gossip plays an important role
in managing our relationships

583
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,520
because you by definition,
cannot possibly know everything

584
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,400
that's happened 24 hours a day
to all your 150.

585
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,560
You know, you can't even do it
for your probably your romantic

586
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:43,760
partner as the one closest
person in position #1 because

587
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,680
some of the time they're,
they're elsewhere, right?

588
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,320
So what we rely on is a chain of
information flow.

589
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,520
I gossip through the network
created by our hundred and 50s,

590
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,480
you know, and you see this
particularly with families.

591
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,840
So that in, in in family
context, there's a almost always

592
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:08,920
a person called a, a kin keeper,
OK, usually female because they

593
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,360
do it best.
But what that what their role

594
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,400
is, is to keep everybody up to
date on how everybody's doing,

595
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,640
how little Jemima's new baby is
getting on.

596
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,120
I might be guilty of that as
well.

597
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,680
But they play a terribly
important role.

598
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,040
They play, yeah.
They really do my duty to say

599
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,960
to, you know, so and so this has
happened.

600
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,600
So, but you know.
And you, in some sense, family

601
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,640
networks are better than
friendship networks in this

602
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,280
point of view because there are
so many interconnections.

603
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,520
It's like a spider's web.
So you can get information.

604
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,000
If Jemima doesn't tell you,
Penelope will, you know.

605
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,600
Information transfer.
Yes, it's all about information

606
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,800
transfer now that helps us keep
up to date with how things.

607
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,480
Therefore we don't make faux pas
when you bump into somebody and

608
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,960
you know, you say, you know, I
don't know, maybe they just got

609
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,160
married or something like that.
And and you do you don't want to

610
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,760
say, you know how how lovely
only to discover in fact, they

611
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,880
got divorced the next day,
right, And you didn't know about

612
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,440
it.
So all those kind of dreadful

613
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,840
things, which can be very
they're the kind of thing that

614
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,000
caused friendships and family
relationships to breakdown.

615
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,840
So it's a loss.
What causes breakdowns?

616
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:21,199
I mean, by this, I mean terminal
breakdowns, catastrophic

617
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:26,800
breakdowns is either loss of
trust or over exploitation.

618
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,280
You know, you just end up doing
all the work.

619
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,719
They're always borrowing stuff
off you and never paying you

620
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:38,719
back, these kind of things.
Or it's, you know, sort of just

621
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,199
not knowing what's going on in
the relationship and always sort

622
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:46,120
of saying things either in
public or unintentionally and

623
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,719
not, you know, perhaps, but just
saying things which, you know,

624
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,000
offend you or hurt you or
whatever.

625
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,080
Right.
So being being and that's

626
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,480
because they're they're not
really engaging well enough with

627
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,080
you.
So, you know, you kind of go

628
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,680
Sonic, that's it.
I'm not talking to you ever

629
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,240
again.
That that kind of information

630
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:09,800
flow then becomes very
important.

631
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,920
But like a lot of these things,
these these capacities can be

632
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:20,720
exploited for gain, as in
propaganda.

633
00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:24,720
The propaganda sense the.
PR kind of PR spinning.

634
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,480
Spin, right?
And that that leads you very

635
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,080
quickly.
And that, of course, is also

636
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,240
important because you do want to
know if somebody in your social

637
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:37,480
world or maybe your charismatic
leaders are behaving in ways

638
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:44,320
which are bad for for you and
your interests or you consider

639
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,520
are unacceptable in some way,
right?

640
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,600
So you don't keep following or
keep retaining as a friend

641
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,680
somebody who actually has
changed so dramatically that you

642
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,280
don't want to be seen out with,
right?

643
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,960
So that there is a sense in
which hearing about the negative

644
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,920
side of gossip becomes
important.

645
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,360
But once you have that in the
system, it's only a very short

646
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,560
step to somebody exploiting it
and using it to promote

647
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,360
themselves or over prevent
themselves or to cast

648
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,520
dispersions on somebody else's
character who's a rival, right?

649
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,920
So that happens a lot.
But what's interesting in this

650
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:26,400
context is we actually are very
intolerant and do not like

651
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:30,640
people who overplay the negative
gossip card too much.

652
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,480
OK, explain.
Well, it gossips in that sense,

653
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:41,160
so the negative sense tend to
get shunned socially because

654
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,720
they're regarded as unreliable,
so they're not going to keep

655
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:47,640
your secrets.
Yeah, because you think you'll

656
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,320
do that about me?
Yes, right.

657
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,680
You know, if they're telling,
telling me all these tales

658
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,720
about, I don't know.
Some of them seem quite socially

659
00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:56,840
flourishing.
I don't know.

660
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,960
Well, they maybe in a different
they can be because they provide

661
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,800
information.
So they, and that's why they do

662
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,000
it.
It's at one level anyway.

663
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,240
It it, it gives them, it makes
them into a kind of charismatic

664
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:10,800
leader.
So people come to them for

665
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,200
information.
But on the other hand, you know,

666
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,480
you probably don't want to, you
know, commit yourself

667
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,920
emotionally too much no, to that
sort of person because.

668
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,680
Trust.
Yeah, it's trust.

669
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,920
Trust.
The hugest thing in the world

670
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,120
for relationships.
Central to all these

671
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,880
relationships.
But then again, if you, yeah,

672
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,360
they can broadcast information
that you want released if you

673
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,280
they're, they're broadcasters in
a way.

674
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,440
I mean, you can play the game
and feed them information you

675
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,520
want you want to get out, but
yeah.

676
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,000
You never know how reliable they
are.

677
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,720
OK, so what's the key
ingredient?

678
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:48,320
I think it is trust.
Isn't it?

679
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,400
Deep friendship, long lasting,
that is the cornerstone And that

680
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,200
empathy as well too.
Well, empathy is the kind of

681
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:01,280
root to creating trust because
what seems, and this is kind of

682
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,920
the interesting feature of the,
the, the seven pillars of

683
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:10,320
friendship, that kind of these
kind of cultural dimensions that

684
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,040
define our relationships.
What they seem to do is to act

685
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,440
as a shortcut to identifying
people we can trust because we,

686
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,440
it identifies the community
they're from.

687
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:23,480
And therefore we know how they
think.

688
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:28,400
We know the kind of ways, you
know, people in that community,

689
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,960
how they view the world, what
they expect of other people in

690
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,320
terms of behaviour and their
values and all these kind of

691
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,200
things.
So it's a shortcut to that which

692
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,000
allows you to.
Otherwise you've got to spend

693
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,320
all this time getting to know
them.

694
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,160
Whereas if you could have come
out with your little checklist,

695
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:45,040
this is a shortcut.
Yeah.

696
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,760
You know, do you like such and
such a joke?

697
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,120
Do you like sound and So's
music?

698
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,080
You know, do you believe X is
the case?

699
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:52,640
It's like it's like a business
investment.

700
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:54,800
It's like what sort of company,
what sort of human like this,

701
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:55,960
right?
You've got these things.

702
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,800
Shortcut, yes.
Less a few hours, you know, 200,

703
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,280
it's costly.
But that's, but that's, that's

704
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,800
because business or any
organization, you know, whether

705
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,440
it's either a government
department or, or, or, or a

706
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,040
private business, it is a social
world, right?

707
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,400
It's people doing stuff,
collaborating to do produce a

708
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,920
product of some cool kind.
You know, whether it's designing

709
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,640
the layout of the streets and
making sure there are enough,

710
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,920
you know, sort of sewers and
electric cables and stuff for

711
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,120
the, for that, for, for the
businesses and houses around, or

712
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,840
literally producing a product
that other people might want to

713
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,720
buy.
All those organisations are

714
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:38,680
built around trust essentially,
that people would do their share

715
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,360
of the work and will provide the
right kind of leadership and

716
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,720
the, you know, fulfil their
tasks as it were properly in the

717
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:51,240
grand scheme of things.
And if, if, when businesses sort

718
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:55,160
of fall down or organisations of
that kind fall down, when trust

719
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,200
is lost, that doesn't make any
difference whether it's a kind

720
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,800
of, I don't know, you know, a
little club of, of, of dog

721
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,240
lovers of some kind.
You know, this sort of of a

722
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,280
particular interest if you like,
or a Sports Club run by

723
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,160
volunteers or or an
organization, a big organization

724
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:19,600
like a business.
When the the people lose trust

725
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,640
in the leadership, the thing
falls apart.

726
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,640
So is a leader socially in a
social circle, Would you

727
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,160
consider a leader, a social
leader, someone who makes the

728
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:35,280
effort to bring friends together
and organizing, you know, I'm

729
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,000
coming to town.
Let's meet up.

730
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,800
So and so you come from there,
you know, organizing, planning,

731
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,200
the logistics.
Is that what what do you think

732
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,960
about people like that, that,
that care enough that organize

733
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,600
these things that what are they?
Is it a good a good?

734
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,120
Force being as I'm not not that
sort of person, it's a thankless

735
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,000
task.
It is, isn't it?

736
00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:58,520
But you've got to have it.
I mean, you won't have a group

737
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,560
basically if you well, you won't
have a community if you don't

738
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,800
have people who are willing to
be the leaders.

739
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,880
That's really what a charismatic
leader does.

740
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,000
They provide, not only do they
provide the kind of figurehead

741
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,440
for the organization, but they
also provide in some sense, the

742
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,640
structure to it.
And make sure, you know, their

743
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,680
commitment in some sense is to
make sure everything works

744
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,520
within it and that people are
introduced in, in, in the way

745
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,800
you suggest.
And that's partly because that's

746
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,600
very time consuming to do for
the for, for most of us.

747
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:39,080
And it's a thankless to ask, but
what's interesting is it, it

748
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,560
becomes necessary to have that
kind of structural organization

749
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,760
once your little community,
whether it's a business or or a

750
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,800
voluntary group gets above about
40 people.

751
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:56,360
So as it hinges around that 50
layer, if it, if it's smaller,

752
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,240
and we've shown this with
communities of practice in

753
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:03,360
business, if, if the, if the
community is smaller than about

754
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,080
40 or 50 people, everything can
be done democratically.

755
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,640
You don't need a lead, you don't
need a committee.

756
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,480
You don't people volunteer and
there's somebody will organise

757
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,280
the room and somebody will get
the biscuits and the tea and

758
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,120
without being asked to do it and
it things get done.

759
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,880
Once you get above 50, you get
this extraordinary rapid phase

760
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:27,200
shift where if you don't have a
kind of management structure of

761
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,040
some kind, so you have a
committee that's responsible,

762
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,360
right, and going round begging
people to turn up to the next

763
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,760
meeting, things won't happen.
People will just drift away.

764
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,640
And, and, you know, any, any
group that tries to be

765
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,240
democratic in that sense that's
bigger than 50 simply doesn't

766
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:47,440
survive it just.
You need a strong leader to

767
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:52,720
manage a big group and and OK,
So what then makes people want

768
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:54,720
to push others away?
Because you've got that thing

769
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:59,400
too where you think, Oh, no.
Oh, I think it's, I think it's

770
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:05,080
just basically the fact that you
don't connect with them, right?

771
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:06,560
You've got nothing in common
with them.

772
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:13,200
So all these things that create
this homophily effect both, both

773
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,960
are biological and, and, and
psychological traits, but also

774
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,400
these cultural traits, the seven
pillars of friendship.

775
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,800
You know, at the end of the day,
if you don't have enough

776
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,480
connection with people, the
relationship won't last, right?

777
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,560
So this is, you know, the
classic cases, you know, I don't

778
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:37,800
know, you're there in the bar at
at Ibiza or some seaside place

779
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,560
and it's 4:00 in the morning and
there's only one other person in

780
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,040
the bar, you know, and it turns
out you both happen to be

781
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,280
enthusiasts for Tiddlywings,
right?

782
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,120
So suddenly you've got a friend
for the night.

783
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:57,280
But because it's only one tiny
dimension of all the possible

784
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,440
points of contact, you know that
friendship is not going to

785
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,520
survive the aeroplane journey
home, right When you when you go

786
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,640
home, you'll never think about
them again.

787
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,240
But for that one night, it works
well.

788
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,200
And you see this happening all
the time.

789
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,760
It's what I call school gate
friendships, right?

790
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,720
And it's very, very common.
So, you know, you, you

791
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,360
particularly sort of in the
primary school period for your

792
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,280
children because you have to go
and collect them from the

793
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,000
school.
All the parents are standing

794
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,960
around, you know, and, and the
kids will come out and say, oh,

795
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:38,080
you know, can Jemima come and
play and say the parents get to

796
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,240
talk to each other because they
have to, to give permission,

797
00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:42,800
obviously.
And then then the kids are such

798
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,320
good friends.
The parents start to spend time

799
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,160
together because they do things
at the weekend, maybe they go on

800
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,720
holiday.
And then as as time goes by and

801
00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:54,080
either the kids move to
different senior schools or

802
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,560
further on go to different
universities.

803
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:02,120
At that point the kids stop
being friends, probably because

804
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,960
they meet new people and the
parents stop being friends.

805
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,520
And what happens then is they
bummer into each other in the

806
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,560
supermarket, in the aisle in the
supermarket.

807
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,120
So I haven't seen you for ages.
You must come round.

808
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,400
I'll give you a call.
They don't and they don't.

809
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:21,240
And a year later, exactly the
same little cartoon is is

810
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:22,880
repeated again, the same aisle
and the.

811
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:24,480
Same.
Too close to home.

812
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,600
Frightening.
But yes, this happens to

813
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,200
everyone.
This is this is just one of

814
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:31,480
those you can't force this
stuff.

815
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,640
No, no.
But it's also, you know, it's

816
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,800
part of the fact that, well,
your social network is dynamic.

817
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:42,280
Yes, OK, you're stuck with the
identity of your family, or you

818
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,600
can move them up and down the
layers, but with friendships,

819
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,360
because you're meeting new
people as you go through life

820
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:55,600
who become more interesting to
you because of your current

821
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,240
kinds of interests.
And people's interests drift

822
00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:01,120
apart when they when they're not
together.

823
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,120
So if you don't see somebody,
this is the experience you have

824
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,440
when you go back to a school
reunion at the age of 40 or 15,

825
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,320
right, for the first time.
And you, all these people, kids

826
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,360
that you in as a teenager, you
spent all your time with,

827
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,960
partying with and doing all
sorts of wicked things with.

828
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,280
And you meet them again when
you're 1415 and you go, Oh my

829
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,960
God, they're awful.
You know, because I'm really

830
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,400
friends.
And it's simply because you've

831
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,960
drifted apart and had different
life experiences and therefore

832
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,320
kind of different things become
important to you.

833
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:36,040
So that that's a normal part of
the dynamics of friendship.

834
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:40,280
If you don't constantly live
together, that's what keeps you

835
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,760
you in line, as it were, because
you're you're having the same

836
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,040
experiences all the time.
You know, my, my experience is

837
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:47,560
slightly different with that in
the sense that I went to

838
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:51,000
boarding school, so.
So did I.

839
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,280
You did so you stayed closer
with the with the people because

840
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:55,840
you you spend more time with
them.

841
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:57,080
It's kind.
Of intense, probably.

842
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:58,760
True.
So it's formative years,

843
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,160
although you also drift apart
and you know, eventually, but

844
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,800
it's a little bit different.
No, I think, but yes.

845
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,120
But I think there is there.
You have to remember also there

846
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,720
is a little core here or very,
very close friends.

847
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:15,320
So you spend a lot of time with,
I don't know, let's say 10 or 12

848
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,640
kids as a teenager partying
together.

849
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:23,360
But out of those 10 or 12, you
have one or two who are really

850
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,880
close friends as they were.
And it's those close friends

851
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:30,720
will never be lost.
You can pick those friendships

852
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:34,680
up again 20-30 years later
exactly where you left off.

853
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,720
And I think it's because they
were so close.

854
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:42,080
The emotional component of it is
ground in stone, whereas the the

855
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,520
others who are who are slightly
less important to you, the the

856
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,720
the intensity of the emotion
wasn't quite so it's.

857
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,480
The intensity of the emotion.
That's why you know when you

858
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,400
meet someone that you really,
you know, fall in love with.

859
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,400
And there is a saying when you
know, you know because it's the

860
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,400
intensity of the emotion and all
this nonsense about wait, you

861
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,360
have to wait approximately 3
weeks or half a year or one year

862
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:07,920
before you must get married.
And you don't.

863
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,000
You did it before.
All that nonsense needs to go

864
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,080
out the window, doesn't it?
When you know, you know this is.

865
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,240
One of those things, yes, but
it's the, I mean that, that the

866
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:19,560
problem is you are at risk ways
of a, of making a bad judgement.

867
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,520
Even so, right, you, you might
think they took all the boxes,

868
00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:25,320
but actually you haven't had
enough experience.

869
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:31,520
So what normally happens is you,
I mean, it's a weird thing

870
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,880
because you have to have this
kind of rosy sunglasses effect,

871
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,040
otherwise you wouldn't get off
the fence.

872
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,720
You've got to have something to
make you get off the fence and

873
00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:44,880
go and talk to the person and
and you know, sort of do you

874
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,160
fancy a dance or whatever, you
know, in order to build a

875
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:53,640
relationship and that that
that's not going to happen if

876
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,240
you if you don't have this kind
of everything is all your

877
00:48:56,240 --> 00:48:59,320
critical faculties are shut,
shut off because what you see is

878
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,200
a Greek God or a Greek goddess,
right.

879
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,920
But the rosier the sunglasses at
that point, the longer the

880
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:12,760
relationship will last because
it takes longer to rub the the

881
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:17,640
the shine of of the statue as it
were with all because in the

882
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,280
course of life, you get a lot of
ground tracing that go goes on

883
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,240
where, you know, they forget
your birthday, they forget to

884
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:26,480
turn up when they said they were
turn up, etcetera, etcetera,

885
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,960
etcetera, Most of which you kind
of forgive initially until it

886
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:31,920
happens often enough.
You say that that's it.

887
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,520
But that ground tracing becomes
important.

888
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:41,800
So it's a, it's a kind of weird
split, as it were, between the

889
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,800
need for this thing just to get
you off the fence and go and

890
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,960
make the relationship, which
starts you off well, and the

891
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,560
fact that you can get over
committed.

892
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,920
And where that comes out is in
romantic scams on the Internet,

893
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,120
because that's exactly how the
scammers work.

894
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,600
What they're playing on is that
if they don't allow you ever to

895
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:07,840
meet them, you become more and
more besotted with this avatar

896
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:09,760
that you've created in your own
mind.

897
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,320
To the point where when you
finally meet them, it doesn't

898
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,320
matter what they look like or
how badly they behave.

899
00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:19,760
You are so forgiving it's
unbelievable.

900
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:21,440
And you just hand over all your
money.

901
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,600
But they they play a very long
game on that because.

902
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:25,960
But that's a red flag.
You meet them.

903
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,120
It's the red flags.
These are I, I think, you know,

904
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,560
people normally show you who
they are and it happens

905
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,680
relatively early on and you've
just got to pay attention when

906
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:35,000
they do, they do show you who
they are.

907
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,320
You.
I see you for who you are.

908
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:42,360
Well, it's it's back to this
first four to six weeks after

909
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,960
meeting somebody, you need to
see them often frequently in

910
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,520
order to have enough experience
of them and kind of get a feel

911
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:57,760
of what the real person beneath
the shine is actually like.

912
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,560
Oh, it's quite fun, isn't it?
It's all this stuff, all this

913
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,840
things.
So we know the healthiest number

914
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,200
now are friendships, and we know
how important it is to spend

915
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:12,160
time and invest and build trust.
And we know about your number so

916
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,480
your brain can maintain well,
can it?

917
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,040
More than one intimate
relationship at a time?

918
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,560
You said up to five.
What if you replaced all those

919
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,120
friends?
Then you had five intimate.

920
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:25,760
I'm not planning to do this.
I'm just asking for other people

921
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:27,280
who are watching who might want
to do this.

922
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:29,440
I have all kinds of people on my
channel.

923
00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:32,080
This is, this is.
We're now into consultants.

924
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,880
I'm just asking for for the for
the audience who would

925
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,120
potentially could you have 5
intimate relationships at the

926
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:39,320
same time?
I mean, really.

927
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,400
Not not romantically intimate
relationships.

928
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,920
Not, it seems not OK because
what happens where, at least in

929
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:51,080
our data, when people claim to
have two romantic relationships,

930
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:57,200
I'd say 2 sexual relationships,
one is always takes precedence

931
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:01,120
over the other.
So 1 is in in at the pole

932
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:07,440
position of the inner core of
five, and the other tends to be

933
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,960
pushed down into the next layer
and that tends to be the

934
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:11,920
previous.
So it's.

935
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,880
Always the favorite anyway.
It looks like it looks like it's

936
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:16,720
very difficult.
And that's based on science.

937
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:17,880
That's based on.
Science.

938
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,560
No one can.
And you can have, you can have

939
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:26,240
pseudo romantic relationships or
sexual relationships with lots

940
00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:30,040
of people, but then they're not
going to necessarily have the

941
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:34,640
intimacy of and the emotional
intimacy of that inner core.

942
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,920
OK.
And that's partly because it

943
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:43,120
becomes, that probably is partly
because the nature of sexual

944
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:47,440
relationships have this intimacy
and emotional component that it

945
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:53,280
makes it very difficult if
anything goes wrong with the

946
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,680
relationship.
So if you're, you know, sort of

947
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:05,040
stood up as it were by by by a
partner, it is so destructive of

948
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,640
your mental state, you want to
break the relationship.

949
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:14,200
So, so it either has to be
slightly anonymous seems or some

950
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:18,360
sort of graduation where you can
keep a balance between your

951
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,560
emotional commitment because
your emotional, The problem is

952
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,480
your emotional commitment for
relationships in general is

953
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,240
limited, right?
You've only got and essentially

954
00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:28,480
that means.
Choose wisely.

955
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:33,440
Time right so you you can choose
to have lots of friends who are

956
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:39,320
very weak friendships, or you
can have a few strong ones and

957
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,200
some super.
Yeah, I find it totally

958
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,120
exhausting to have lots of the
the shallow conversations.

959
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,720
I find it so difficult, you
know, that the playground chat,

960
00:53:47,240 --> 00:53:51,600
it absolutely drains me of every
cell in my body.

961
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,080
I can't take it.
So hello, how are you doing?

962
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,520
And whether I find it
exhausting, if I am going to

963
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,760
talk to someone, I want it to be
meaningful and deep and I'll

964
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,280
tell you the truth and please
tell me your truth.

965
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:03,520
And then we can have that
moment.

966
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,280
And then it's it's nicer than
oh, actually, I prefer a huge

967
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,640
crowd.
And then I don't have any like

968
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:11,920
responsibility to them.
You know, I'm I'm talking to

969
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,480
them, but.
So this is kind of difference

970
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:16,800
between introverts and
extroverts because introverts

971
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:21,560
seem to have so, so basically
what's going on is you're trying

972
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:26,600
to manage this little group,
this little in a clique of, you

973
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:32,400
know, maybe only 3-4 or five
people who provide you with your

974
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,760
deep emotional support.
You know when crisis happens,

975
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:39,760
you know they will drop
everything to come and pick you

976
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,560
up, as it were, all right.
So to keep them in the loop, you

977
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:46,000
have to invest very heavily in
them and maintain the

978
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,280
relationship.
Of course, they are then having

979
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,400
to do the same to you.
So it's.

980
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:52,480
I never thought about like this,
but it's an investment.

981
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:56,960
Gosh, now what?
What seems to happen is

982
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,880
introverts take a kind of risk
averse.

983
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:04,320
So they really want to be sure
that when disaster happens and

984
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,760
the problem is you can't
legislate for it, you, you know,

985
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:12,160
it's too late to go and ask
somebody to help you out in, in,

986
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,800
in those sort of states of
affairs, as it were.

987
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,200
If you don't already have a
relationship with them, you have

988
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,800
to have set that up ahead of
time, well ahead of time for

989
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,160
them to be willing to do it.
So that what they want to be

990
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:27,120
sure is that the people they
have in that little group really

991
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,800
will do the job.
So they'd rather have fewer of

992
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,320
them and invest more time in
each one.

993
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:35,880
And that means they have smaller
networks, whereas extroverts

994
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:41,000
seem to trade on their social
skills, as it were, and social

995
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,120
confidence to handle weaker
relationships.

996
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,880
So their view is, well, you
know, if Jemimah turns me down,

997
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:52,000
won't help, I'll go and ask for
the meaner, you know, because

998
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,920
somebody will do it.
Somebody because, you know, then

999
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:58,400
they can then what they have is
more friendships.

1000
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,280
So their social social networks
are bigger than 150.

1001
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:06,280
But the average emotional
closeness is much weaker you.

1002
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,920
Call that.
Are you saying that I'm an

1003
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,160
introvert?
Because I don't know.

1004
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:14,960
There's no Now I'm worried.
But there's nothing wrong with

1005
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,720
being an introvert.
Well, I don't know, I'm a

1006
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:22,280
podcaster and all those, no, I
mean I did all those like Myers

1007
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,240
Briggs things and I've always
been like a communicator and I'm

1008
00:56:25,240 --> 00:56:27,680
sales and I, I definitely don't
shy away from a crowd and all

1009
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,400
that sort of thing.
It's just that these little chit

1010
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,440
chat things, I find them
slightly pointless.

1011
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,760
I mean, I know we have to do
them and I know why I know that

1012
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:37,520
obviously, no, we have to do
that.

1013
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,160
But it's just, it is exhausting.
And then then maybe I have a.

1014
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:42,720
Fine, fine.
And I think it's more exhausting

1015
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,960
for, for for introverts than it
is for extroverts because they

1016
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,000
don't really extroverts tend not
to think about it.

1017
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:52,920
They're just operating in well,
kind of, yes.

1018
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:56,840
I mean automatic mode, open the
mouth, things will come out.

1019
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,080
Whereas introverts tend to think
more carefully about what

1020
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,240
they're well, that's what I
think because I'm an

1021
00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:02,600
introverted.
Yes.

1022
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,960
OK, No, I don't know what I am
at interface.

1023
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,840
I'm confused.
Confused about right.

1024
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,360
This one is a big one.
Why do families fight so much

1025
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,360
and so badly?
Why we're supposed to be tight?

1026
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:18,880
What's the?
Problem and in general they are

1027
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:23,720
very tight relationships, but
the problem is in the end it

1028
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,800
comes back to this trust issue
primarily.

1029
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:33,080
The one thing that will cause
relationship breakdown of any

1030
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:39,280
kind is a breakdown of trust,
and that can be exaggerated by

1031
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,480
competition for resources within
the family.

1032
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,280
Like.
What access to, I don't know a

1033
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,120
particular but let's say mum or
dad as a SO.

1034
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:56,160
Fighting over mum and dad's
attention.

1035
00:57:56,160 --> 00:58:02,800
Source of support.
Ultimately the, the big test

1036
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:07,080
case is when the parents die,
that's when families fall apart

1037
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,320
because they start arguing about
who gets what.

1038
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:13,280
It's extremely common, extremely
common.

1039
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:19,000
But in general, that kind of can
happen at any time.

1040
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:22,560
And because you're, you have
these very close relationships,

1041
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:26,880
you spend a lot of time with
these people, you, you're kind

1042
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:31,320
of much more attentive to how
evenly balanced the relationship

1043
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:33,080
is.
Are they getting more than me?

1044
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:35,240
Am I having to do all the work
all the time?

1045
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:42,120
And that, you know, that those
little niggles create sort of

1046
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,760
fracture lines that eventually,
if you get enough of them,

1047
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:50,320
'cause terminal collapse.
And what's interesting is, I

1048
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,720
mean, this probably doesn't
apply to kind of your second

1049
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:57,320
cousin's twice removed, but you
know that inner core of sort of

1050
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:03,200
siblings, parents, grandparents,
whatever cousins may be, when

1051
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,840
you fall out with them, it is
catastrophic.

1052
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:11,880
Almost always these are deathbed
reconciliations only literally,

1053
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:13,960
whereas with friendships.
Horrible that you just said

1054
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:15,840
that.
With friendships and you fall

1055
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:19,320
out with them, you tend to just
drift away from them.

1056
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:22,160
You just stop seeing them.
Before you get to that point,

1057
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:25,600
but I think, yeah, with this
betrayal trust, this emotional

1058
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:27,800
raw stuff, it's tough to fix
that.

1059
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:32,080
But I think it's because you you
are by definition, with any

1060
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:35,440
close relationship, whether it's
a friend or a close family, you

1061
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,120
are more forgiving.
So they stand you up once.

1062
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:39,840
Oh, it's just Jim again, you
know?

1063
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:41,480
Yeah.
He's just like that.

1064
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:42,680
Yeah.
He's always like that.

1065
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:46,320
But eventually, when it happens
often enough, you kind of go

1066
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,440
enough is enough.
And that point it is terminal

1067
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:55,880
because you've committed so much
trust and emotion that you feel

1068
00:59:55,880 --> 01:00:00,320
very let down.
Whereas if a a casual friend and

1069
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,880
the same is true with romantic,
you know, it's what happens with

1070
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:06,440
romantic relationships as it
when divorces, it's what happens

1071
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:11,640
with best friend relationships
when they part company for the

1072
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:14,960
same reason and they they are
irreparable, whereas somebody

1073
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:18,240
more distant.
You just stop seeing them long

1074
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:22,720
before you get to that point.
And that, that makes it easier

1075
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:27,720
then to reconcile because you
know they, they, they can, after

1076
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:30,680
a reasonable gap, can try to
repair the relationship in some

1077
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:32,760
way and you're open to accepting
it.

1078
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:38,160
But with these catastrophic
relationship breakdowns, you've

1079
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:43,520
committed so much emotion to it
and feel so madly let down that

1080
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:46,680
nothing is going to persuade.
That investment, it hurts.

1081
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:48,240
Yes.
But then also.

1082
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:50,840
Over investment.
Over investment but is it also

1083
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:54,480
that with our family and our you
know our partner, whatever we

1084
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:58,280
set the bar really high when it
comes to trust and the standards

1085
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,880
we expect from them and like you
cannot do this and also the

1086
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:03,000
expectations of our parents.
You're supposed to be like this

1087
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,520
like this like this, like this
my sisters, brothers, you have

1088
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:08,040
to behave like that partner.
I expect all these golden

1089
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:10,760
standards, and the higher the
standards, the bigger the drop.

1090
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:15,200
Yes, yes.
Wow, don't have standards then?

1091
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:18,040
No, Do have standards.
Don't please have standards.

1092
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:19,360
Well, no.
You know what?

1093
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:21,000
If they let you down, then
sorry.

1094
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:24,800
But it's like it's a trade off.
There are no absolutes in, in

1095
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,320
real life, right?
There are only trade-offs.

1096
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:32,480
So you are free to, you know, if
you want to set the bar very

1097
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:36,040
high, that's fine because that
produced a very strong

1098
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,000
relationship.
But the risk you run is that

1099
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:42,240
it's kind of you're, you're
asking for perfection where

1100
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:46,800
perfection can never exist.
And therefore the you, you the

1101
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,920
relationship at some point may
be put at risk of fracture.

1102
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:56,400
Whereas if you're and that's
because you expect a lot of out

1103
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:00,520
of the relationship and you're
going to give a lot in return,

1104
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:02,840
as it were for the equation
balances.

1105
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:07,200
Whereas with more casual
friendships, you kind of don't

1106
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:12,040
expect quite so much attention
to the detail.

1107
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:17,600
You know, you, you if, if, if,
if you invite them 10 times too

1108
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:21,160
many to, to your party to, to
the number of times they invite

1109
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:23,960
you to their parties, you kind
of go, well, you know, they're

1110
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,640
just froth in the in, in the, in
the crowd.

1111
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:28,560
They make up the numbers,
whatever, whatever.

1112
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:34,080
And you're more forgiving of it.
And therefore when something

1113
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:38,200
they do, something that upsets
you is not a usually not a

1114
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:41,840
catastrophic upset.
It's more if you're going to

1115
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:43,520
behave like that, I'm not going
to bother.

1116
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:46,800
And and not going to bother
means you don't pick up the

1117
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:50,640
phone to arrange to see them.
And therefore you, you don't see

1118
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:52,960
each other.
And the emotional quality of the

1119
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:56,360
friendship decays steadily with
time, in a natural way.

1120
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:59,280
Can I ask you something of the
present phenomenon, which is

1121
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:03,480
called ghosting?
I just think I, I mean, I

1122
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,000
understand why people do it, but
I just think it's so rude.

1123
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,840
I think it's so hurtful.
It's so rude.

1124
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:11,440
I mean, just say you don't like
it.

1125
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:14,760
You know, I spoke to to The
Apprentice winner the other the

1126
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:15,960
other day.
You know, he's made a lot of

1127
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:16,840
money.
He sold his business.

1128
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:19,840
Lord Sugar, he's a busy guy.
He's doing all these things, so

1129
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,240
much going on and he doesn't
ghost people, you know, when

1130
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:24,080
they send, you know, business.
Are you interested?

1131
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:25,120
No, thank you.
I'm not.

1132
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:26,400
Thanks, Rich.
I'm not interested.

1133
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,120
Not interested.
Takes millisecond.

1134
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:31,960
Boom, boom, boom, done.
And he does that because he

1135
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:34,000
said, you know, I see I'm a
brand as well.

1136
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,240
And any interaction with me, I
don't want to be the ghost.

1137
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:38,040
I don't want to be the one that
doesn't respond.

1138
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:44,840
I don't want to be that.
And yeah, I just, I, I had a out

1139
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:47,720
of the five, I would put in the
top 50 person I reached out to

1140
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:49,920
and I got ghosted.
And I just thought, but, but

1141
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:52,320
it's so strange that you would
have ghosted me.

1142
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:53,920
I just think, would you not
have?

1143
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:55,520
It's just polite.
It's menace.

1144
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:59,040
No, Well, yes.
And, and that whole point is

1145
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,960
that that's one of the key
skills the, you know, what keeps

1146
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:05,920
relationships going, what keeps
communities going, organisations

1147
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,760
going, are the skills of
diplomacy, right?

1148
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:11,760
They're these abilities to
understand how somebody else is

1149
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:16,920
seeing the situation.
So I can kind of adjust how I

1150
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:21,360
interact with you in a way that
keeps you in the loop rather

1151
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:24,720
than putting you off and, you
know, sort of messing you about

1152
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:31,360
this ability to, to, to inhibit,
you know, your natural instincts

1153
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:38,640
to, you know, emotionally jump
to conclusions, as it were, the

1154
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:44,360
red mist rising, You know, those
skills and, and this ability

1155
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:49,200
simply to be courteous to
people, right?

1156
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:54,280
Because that's exactly the kind
of thing that undermines trust.

1157
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:58,840
You know, if if, if you just
don't answer naturally, you kind

1158
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:02,040
of go, what have I done?
But you know, I can understand

1159
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:04,680
why some people don't answer as
well because it's it's also

1160
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,880
effort, investment and difficult
and uncomfortable to say no to

1161
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,480
someone.
You might be scared to say no to

1162
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,200
them, so you'd.
Rather just, but there's also a

1163
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:14,320
situation.
I mean, the one of the problems

1164
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:18,920
at the moment created by the
Internet essentially in social

1165
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:28,400
media is we just get overwhelmed
all the time with contacts, you

1166
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:32,400
know, so, so you know, the, the
scale of his in the days when we

1167
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,600
wrote letters, you would write a
letter to somebody saying, can

1168
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,120
you tell me about something or
maybe some information?

1169
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:41,800
They would send it back and you
might send a note back which

1170
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:44,040
just says, thanks very much, end
of the story.

1171
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:49,360
Now with e-mail, you feel a
compulsion to reply to every

1172
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:50,760
reply.
So you end up sort of

1173
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:54,360
meaningless replies.
Yeah, it's some of those are

1174
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:57,160
make up to apologies to
interject, but to say, oh, can I

1175
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:00,120
add that to your calendar now
can we add Winkley, would you

1176
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:02,680
like to schedule a meeting today
in 15 minutes?

1177
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:02,920
I can.
Oh.

1178
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:06,800
No, exactly, exactly.
And I, but I think that's too

1179
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:10,120
much causes causes a lot of if
you like the ghost thing is does

1180
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:12,080
and I, I know I do it all the
time.

1181
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:18,040
There's somebody emails and says
ask the question and you kind of

1182
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:20,280
go, well, I don't know what the
answer is.

1183
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:24,320
Yes, I need to think about it.
But you know, and you park it,

1184
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:26,160
and then the problem is you
forget about it.

1185
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:28,040
You forget about.
It and you come across it about

1186
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:29,360
two months later, you're Oh my
gosh.

1187
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:31,720
It's understandable.
It's understandable.

1188
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:34,600
But I was saying that in a top
50 crowd, you know, the one

1189
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:37,080
where like it's someone that you
know and you've interacted with

1190
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:39,360
and you might have done business
with them or whatever that that

1191
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:42,680
then becomes that that's
actually not Yeah, that's a

1192
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:44,680
little.
Bit, yeah, I mean this, if you

1193
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:49,480
think about it in terms of
you're historically as it were,

1194
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:51,680
you know, if you go back 100
years, everybody lived in small

1195
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:54,280
villages of a couple of 100
people.

1196
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:56,640
Everybody knew everybody else,
everybody was in everybody's

1197
01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:59,240
150.
They're just orientated

1198
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:03,680
differently, right?
So most of the time you had

1199
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:07,400
enough capacity to manage the
relationships you had.

1200
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:12,320
Now what happens is we move so
much, you know, you go to

1201
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:15,000
university, you grow up here,
you go to university there, you

1202
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:16,920
get your first job somewhere
else.

1203
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:20,520
You move after a few years to a
different city, to a different

1204
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,000
country, and you end up with
little pockets of people.

1205
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:26,440
So what you're accumulating is
not 150 people who are

1206
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:30,200
relatively stable as used to be
the case, but you're getting

1207
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:34,280
sort of, you know, you, you in
effect, you're 150 is being

1208
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:38,640
pushed up to 1500 people and
you're not able to cope with

1209
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:40,040
that.
You just don't have the time.

1210
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:41,920
It's very.
We haven't evolved evolved.

1211
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:44,960
We haven't evolved to that.
We have to keep evolving and

1212
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:47,960
right.
The time is time.

1213
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:50,240
Time is yes.
You know you can't.

1214
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:56,640
You can't create time because
each relationship require has

1215
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:01,280
its own time demand depending on
the emotional closeness, which

1216
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:04,720
layer that dictates how much
time you have to invest.

1217
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:08,640
Because if you don't invest that
time, that relationship will

1218
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:13,560
decay inexorably.
It takes about two years of not

1219
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:18,479
seeing a person for them to move
from, say, your 15 layer.

1220
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:22,279
So a good regular social friend
to become just an acquaintance,

1221
01:08:22,279 --> 01:08:25,200
somebody I once knew, that's
frightening.

1222
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:28,640
That's if you don't see them at
all, right?

1223
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:31,080
Which is what tends to happen.
You know, if you think about

1224
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:33,800
your experience, you, you went
away to university somewhere,

1225
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,240
you had this little group of
people you did stuff with and

1226
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:40,200
then your party company went
different parts of the world,

1227
01:08:40,359 --> 01:08:43,920
right?
And some of them you tried, made

1228
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:46,520
a big effort to keep up with and
they tended to be this the one

1229
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:51,240
or two platonic close friends.
But the others you kind of feel

1230
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:55,880
very guilty about not keeping up
with, but you just don't have

1231
01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:57,880
time because you're meeting all
these other new people.

1232
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:00,319
Yeah.
And so they kind of grad.

1233
01:09:00,319 --> 01:09:04,279
Placing you do take you up.
Put you in.

1234
01:09:04,359 --> 01:09:06,479
Yeah, Yeah.
And then, you know, that means

1235
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:09,800
you, you, you're, you're
squeezing your time availability

1236
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:12,000
and somebody has to go.
Someone has to go, yeah.

1237
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:14,479
Right, and and eventually you
don't intend to push.

1238
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:16,439
Actually, I quite like that
because I don't like hoarding,

1239
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:17,960
you know?
Yeah, well.

1240
01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:20,920
I like that refreshing the it's
not bad.

1241
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:23,800
It's a good concept, but let's
talk about, you know, that this

1242
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,680
thing, there's there's a lot of
talk about people being

1243
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:30,160
infectious, you know, people
rubbing off on you.

1244
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:33,279
So one of the reasons why I've
got this podcast is because I

1245
01:09:33,279 --> 01:09:37,840
want to rub off on the wider
planet in a very lovely positive

1246
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:41,800
and come on, let's do this so we
can really like make change and

1247
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,600
do stuff here, you know,
positive mindset and

1248
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:47,880
interviewing the right people
with the right messaging and

1249
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:49,800
that kind of thing.
And I love spending time with

1250
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:51,920
people like you because it's
just wonderful.

1251
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:54,600
You know, you, you just filled
with all this knowledge and it's

1252
01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:57,120
a good influence, you know, and
I hope that I'm radiating some

1253
01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,160
positive energy towards you.
But then you've got toxic

1254
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:03,360
people.
You really do negative,

1255
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:09,360
damaging, not the right agenda.
How do you deal with it?

1256
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:11,720
Like is that have they always
existed or has this?

1257
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:15,200
Have they become a thing in
today's modern age?

1258
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:17,920
How do you deal with them?
Everything about these toxic

1259
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:21,000
people and what do you.
Do they've always existed?

1260
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:30,640
Usually in in historically in
the past they tend to be people

1261
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:35,480
with psychopathic traits, right?
And all, all small scale

1262
01:10:35,480 --> 01:10:38,000
societies have problems with
these people because they're

1263
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:40,240
very destructive.
So they're biologically

1264
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:42,120
different, as in they've got
like what?

1265
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:43,760
What?
Because like sarcopaths have

1266
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:46,160
extra chromosomes or.
Things they've not got extra

1267
01:10:46,160 --> 01:10:48,560
chromosomes, they just tend to
have different alleles.

1268
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:53,800
So they, they tend to be very
poor on the capacity to inhibit

1269
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:58,680
action, right.
And so rather than hanging back

1270
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:03,640
and making a, a considered view.
So if you think about it, you

1271
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:07,080
know, in the playground sense.
So there you all are in the sand

1272
01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:11,560
pit of life and people are
running up and down, kids are

1273
01:11:11,560 --> 01:11:15,680
running up and down and and you
know one of them kicks sand in

1274
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:19,320
your face, right?
So what a psychopath will do is

1275
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:21,640
he again sorts the kid out,
right?

1276
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:23,880
Because he assumes that it was
malicious.

1277
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:28,280
Whereas a sensible person,
social person, if you like, will

1278
01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:30,960
sit back for a moment and go,
was that an accident or not?

1279
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:33,880
Right.
And you're the right way to

1280
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:37,080
behave depends on whether it was
an accident or whether it was

1281
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:39,480
done deliberately.
If it's an accident, you've got

1282
01:11:39,480 --> 01:11:42,600
to forgive them and forget it.
You know, if they did it

1283
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:45,120
deliberate, maybe you sort them
out, whatever.

1284
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:52,800
But those kind of skill, skills
of diplomacy that allow you to

1285
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:57,840
keep a group functioning, you
know, are very difficult to

1286
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:03,200
maintain in the context where
somebody is constantly behaving

1287
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:06,040
as a psychopath.
And, and they tend to be pretty

1288
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:08,320
violent people.
And they tend to be in small

1289
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:11,080
scale societies and tribal,
small scale tribal societies.

1290
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:16,720
They tend to be people who, who,
who, you know, responsible for a

1291
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:18,640
lot of homicides, quite
literally.

1292
01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:23,440
And, and, and mostly small scale
societies live in fear of these

1293
01:12:23,440 --> 01:12:25,480
people because they're so
destructive.

1294
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:28,360
Never mind their personal risk
they run, they're just

1295
01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:30,800
destructive of the community and
you.

1296
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:34,680
Your whole ability to survive
depends on the community being

1297
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:37,800
cooperative and coordinated.
So what happens in the end

1298
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,720
usually is the community gangs
up against them.

1299
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:43,840
You get them drunk on Saturday
night and sort them out forever,

1300
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:46,640
right?
Or they get blamed for

1301
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:52,040
witchcraft and then they get
strung up for for being witches.

1302
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:54,480
So that's extremely common in
these small schemes.

1303
01:12:54,480 --> 01:12:57,960
So there's the extreme, there's
the homicide ones, but then

1304
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:01,080
there's also, you know, in the
Patrick Bateman, you know,

1305
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:02,720
there's all that, there's all
that kind of thing.

1306
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:05,560
But then there's, there's ones
that are just, you know, they

1307
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:12,000
exist and they just, I don't
know if it's hurt people hurt

1308
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:14,840
people or what, what it is, but
but they see the world in a

1309
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:17,040
negative way.
And so they respond negatively

1310
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:21,080
and they cause, they manipulate,
they cause trouble.

1311
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:26,720
This is what says the dark
Triad, Psychopaths, narcissists

1312
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:29,600
and exploiters.
Machiavellian people.

1313
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:33,440
Yeah, I mean they those guys.
They're there.

1314
01:13:33,440 --> 01:13:37,640
We all know one or two.
You know, for the better or

1315
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:40,160
worse exotic.
They're the They're the rich

1316
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:43,480
tapestry of social life that.
We have to We like having them

1317
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:47,560
in the tapestry, but members.
You know, you know, you're right

1318
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:53,280
that you know, life can't go
can't run smoothly if it's if

1319
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:56,240
there are a lot of them, that's
why they tend to be rather rare.

1320
01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:58,920
Otherwise it would be totally
destructive.

1321
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:04,120
And when, whether they're,
there's clearly a kind, some

1322
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:07,200
kind of genetic process going
on.

1323
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:11,760
They're often associated with
what's known as the warrior gene

1324
01:14:13,440 --> 01:14:16,680
in the brain, which is one of
the, the genes associated with

1325
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:19,360
bits of the brain.
But it is tied up very much with

1326
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:23,360
this inability to inhibit, you
know, they, they just are

1327
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:25,640
selfish basically.
Grab things off the plate.

1328
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:29,160
Grabs things off the plate.
Doesn't matter if you don't get

1329
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:36,040
any and you know, if if that
becomes very destructive either

1330
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:40,400
of your well-being in
relationships or the community's

1331
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:43,920
relationships, somehow it has to
get sorted out.

1332
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:50,240
And in, you know, in, in small
scale societies, they were just,

1333
01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:53,520
you know, you got banished or
you got killed.

1334
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:55,960
I mean, there's movies about
people like all the time.

1335
01:14:56,080 --> 01:14:58,120
And in a way they've got a set
so you can sort of almost feel

1336
01:14:58,120 --> 01:15:00,480
sorry for them because you want
them to have a friend and you

1337
01:15:00,480 --> 01:15:02,440
think, why are you harming
yourself all the time?

1338
01:15:02,440 --> 01:15:04,080
Why are you acting like
completely?

1339
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:08,040
In, in, in, in, In the modern
industrial world we have these

1340
01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:11,200
enormous communities.
The point is they have places to

1341
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:17,440
hide if we live when you live in
small villages, as we've done

1342
01:15:17,440 --> 01:15:21,240
for, you know, sort of since
time immemorial, long before

1343
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:26,200
history until very recently.
I mean, I think Rome was the

1344
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:29,640
first city to have a million
people and that was 2000 years

1345
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,800
ago only, right?
So we've, we've not lived in

1346
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:35,560
these very large communities for
very long.

1347
01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:38,600
So we kind of don't have the
skills to handle them basically.

1348
01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:43,240
But in small scale communities,
you know, it, it, it is so

1349
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:45,600
destructive that you can't
tolerate it.

1350
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:51,160
And you have to have have some
fairly, you know, ultimate

1351
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:55,800
violent solutions.
Otherwise everybody just gets

1352
01:15:55,800 --> 01:16:00,600
overwhelmed in, in the kind of
modern world where you've the

1353
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:03,160
world actually consists mostly
of strangers.

1354
01:16:03,440 --> 01:16:08,080
These people have places to hide
and that's why, you know, sort

1355
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:11,680
of so So what you get in
villages is communal policing,

1356
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:14,000
right?
I like that.

1357
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:18,160
And communal policing people,
people take a responsibility

1358
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:24,400
for, for dealing with or
pacifying or sorting out in the

1359
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:28,200
nicest possible way, people who
are troublesome, you know, and

1360
01:16:28,200 --> 01:16:30,880
they police each other's kids
and, and make sure they behave

1361
01:16:31,480 --> 01:16:36,520
and don't become destructive.
But as you once you get above

1362
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:39,960
about 150 people in an
organization, whether it's a

1363
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:45,360
village or an organization or a
business, that there is a loss

1364
01:16:45,360 --> 01:16:47,600
of a sense of willingness to
police.

1365
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:51,280
Because what happens in a
village is, you know, I behave

1366
01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:54,280
badly on Saturday night at the
village dance.

1367
01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:58,440
You decide to say something to
me and I go, oh, Alexander, I'm

1368
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:00,640
terribly sorry.
It was really appalling.

1369
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:05,320
I won't do it again.
But if we're living in, you

1370
01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:13,000
know, an enormous modern city of
10 million people, my response

1371
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:16,160
to your trying to explain to me
that my behaviour is shockingly

1372
01:17:16,160 --> 01:17:20,480
bad is and who do you think you
are, Right?

1373
01:17:20,640 --> 01:17:23,240
Well, I don't owe you any
obligation, you know, by what

1374
01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:24,960
right do you?
That's why we have to end up

1375
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:29,520
having a police force, right?
It's in some sense neutral,

1376
01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:32,400
whereas in small communities,
the community acts as its own

1377
01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:34,960
police force.
And especially because of the

1378
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:39,120
the kind of generational
hierarchical structure, because

1379
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:42,720
sitting at the back of the
village somewhere is great

1380
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:48,200
grandma by her turf fire as the
wagging her finger, you know,

1381
01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:52,880
And she's maintaining the peace
because all the great

1382
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:57,440
grandchildren who are all your
second cousins are all equally

1383
01:17:57,440 --> 01:18:02,040
valuable to her, right?
So don't you go upsetting little

1384
01:18:02,040 --> 01:18:06,640
Jimmy because you know he's one
of my great grandchildren too,

1385
01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:11,320
right?
So you have this kind of very

1386
01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:16,520
neat, in some ways, internal
structurings which are based on

1387
01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:19,360
relationships.
So you take great granny

1388
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:23,200
seriously because you like her
probably or she's very fierce.

1389
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:29,480
They come in two varieties.
And also she's backed up by the

1390
01:18:29,480 --> 01:18:33,120
older generations, right?
So she can she she can, you

1391
01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:38,400
know, individuals can impose
discipline and and we accept

1392
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:41,480
that discipline out of the sense
of obligation because we have

1393
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:45,160
meaningful relationships is when
we our arrangements with each

1394
01:18:45,160 --> 01:18:49,560
other are neutral.
We have no, because they're

1395
01:18:49,560 --> 01:18:51,040
strangers.
We don't really know.

1396
01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:52,800
I don't have any obligation
here.

1397
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:56,520
That's when you start getting
zinc estate problems.

1398
01:18:57,520 --> 01:19:00,920
Yeah, I think individual
speaking up and and maintain

1399
01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:03,440
your standards is important.
I just tell you something very

1400
01:19:03,440 --> 01:19:05,120
quickly.
Someone littered the other day

1401
01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:08,480
in the countryside that I on a
route that I run on religiously

1402
01:19:08,480 --> 01:19:12,480
and I just saw him and he threw
a little sushi box into the

1403
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:16,560
thing and I just sort of stopped
and I picked it up and I gave us

1404
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:18,960
that's yours because we don't
litter in the in the

1405
01:19:18,960 --> 01:19:20,720
countryside.
And I ran off and he just sort

1406
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:25,400
of looking, but I think he won't
want to do that again and I

1407
01:19:25,400 --> 01:19:27,920
might get into trouble one day
for doing that, but I would but

1408
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:30,200
I but I but I.
You know, that's why people stop

1409
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:31,240
doing it, because most of the.
Time.

1410
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:34,720
I don't mind that that much
even, because I would be angry

1411
01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:36,160
with myself if I didn't say
anything.

1412
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:38,760
And I think I want that.
I want that standard maintained

1413
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:41,040
in that countryside, full stop.
That's it.

1414
01:19:41,120 --> 01:19:44,080
Like you don't come into this
countryside a little here, ever.

1415
01:19:44,560 --> 01:19:49,720
Yeah, but it, it depends on the
the wider community having that

1416
01:19:49,720 --> 01:19:54,200
sense of obligation and you
know, that you're not just being

1417
01:19:55,160 --> 01:19:59,080
nasty and abusive and rude.
I'm helping him too because he

1418
01:19:59,080 --> 01:20:00,800
likes the countryside.
He's there enjoying it.

1419
01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:03,520
Do you want to enjoy?
Part of the community too, but

1420
01:20:03,560 --> 01:20:06,640
it that and that works fine.
But the problem is where

1421
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:10,200
anonymous relationships become
utterly anonymous, then you have

1422
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:16,040
scope for people who are
essentially psychopaths and

1423
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:19,080
selfish to go.
I'm not going to take that from

1424
01:20:19,080 --> 01:20:20,000
you.
Yeah, I know.

1425
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:21,160
Then you're in trouble.
And then you're in.

1426
01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:26,280
You're in big trouble.
And that's why people stop kind

1427
01:20:26,280 --> 01:20:31,080
of acting as good citizens.
Yeah.

1428
01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:35,520
And it when it becomes literally
dangerous or can become very

1429
01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:38,800
dangerous, you know, when you go
to the aid where somebody's

1430
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:42,840
being attacked and you go to the
aid of an innocent person and

1431
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:45,600
it's not, you know, the police
often say afterwards, don't do

1432
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:47,160
it.
It's a ring for us.

1433
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:49,960
That's what we're here.
For then we need more.

1434
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:52,320
I know.
Yes, it's a.

1435
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:57,720
It's a quandary and it's, but
it's part of the fact that there

1436
01:20:57,720 --> 01:21:01,120
aren't simple solutions in life.
The real world is complicated,

1437
01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:03,880
particularly the social world.
It's probably the human social

1438
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:05,880
world is probably the most
complicated thing in the

1439
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:10,640
universe, partly because it's
completely unpredictable and

1440
01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:13,800
partly because it involves so
many different dimensions.

1441
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:16,360
Each person is a dimension.
So you're not dealing with a

1442
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:18,880
kind of 1 dimensional universe,
which is just you.

1443
01:21:19,080 --> 01:21:23,080
You're dealing with a, you know,
sort of 500.

1444
01:21:23,480 --> 01:21:27,040
Mega complicated.
Individuals, each of whom has

1445
01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:31,480
their own interests and it just
becomes impossible to manage.

1446
01:21:31,480 --> 01:21:35,520
So you end up having to engage
in compromises.

1447
01:21:35,520 --> 01:21:40,040
So everything in real life
becomes a kind of compromise and

1448
01:21:40,040 --> 01:21:43,200
and a trade off.
And how important the trade off

1449
01:21:43,200 --> 01:21:47,160
is to you will determine yes
what your solution.

1450
01:21:47,440 --> 01:21:49,920
Yeah, the sudden, the
negotiable, the non negotiable,

1451
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:51,000
all that, all that kind of
thing.

1452
01:21:51,880 --> 01:21:53,840
I could talk to you for hours
and hours and I've got more

1453
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:56,640
questions, but I'm going to
condense the most important

1454
01:21:56,640 --> 01:21:59,000
things because we we have
limited time now.

1455
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:02,040
What's the best tip that you can
give?

1456
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:06,480
You know, if we want to improve
our social connections, have

1457
01:22:06,480 --> 01:22:09,160
better friends, be closer.
Is it singing, dancing with

1458
01:22:09,160 --> 01:22:10,720
them, gossiping with them?
What is it?

1459
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:13,880
How do we what?
What's the the tip for everyone?

1460
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:19,600
Well, I think the answer comes
down to the the the mechanisms

1461
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:27,160
we use for fast tracking
friendships, which are what a

1462
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:30,560
set of behaviours that I refer
to as our social toolkit.

1463
01:22:30,560 --> 01:22:35,280
And these are laughter, singing,
dancing rituals.

1464
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:38,360
And in the normal world, the
rituals of religion in

1465
01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:43,600
particular, feasting, eating and
drinking together socially and

1466
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:48,480
storytelling and all of those
helped to create a sense of

1467
01:22:48,480 --> 01:22:52,360
community.
But of those, by far the best is

1468
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:54,000
singing.
We always refer to singing as

1469
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:58,360
the icebreaker effect because
we've shown choral singing.

1470
01:22:58,360 --> 01:23:00,360
So singing together, right?
Community singing.

1471
01:23:00,360 --> 01:23:03,520
I mean, don't been, you know,
Bach and Tartars or something

1472
01:23:03,520 --> 01:23:05,640
fancy.
I just mean old folk songs

1473
01:23:05,640 --> 01:23:08,400
around the camera.
And what we've shown is you can

1474
01:23:08,400 --> 01:23:12,360
take a bunch of complete
strangers, give them an hour's

1475
01:23:12,360 --> 01:23:15,880
community singing together.
So the Gareth Malone, you know,

1476
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:20,680
community singing the old songs
that everybody knows, an hour of

1477
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:24,760
that and they'll come out of it
feeling as though they've known

1478
01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:26,560
each other since they were at
primary school.

1479
01:23:27,560 --> 01:23:29,640
It's absolutely incredible how
fast that is.

1480
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:32,760
And nothing, nothing else works
as fast as that.

1481
01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:34,840
And you actually haven't
interacted with anybody.

1482
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:40,960
What you've done is stood in a
circle or maybe a line and sang,

1483
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:44,920
but you've been singing in
synchrony with each other,

1484
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:48,000
highly synchronised.
And singing triggers the

1485
01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:52,840
endorphin system, which is what
provides the emotional raw feels

1486
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:57,040
component to relationships.
And it does it very, very fast,

1487
01:23:57,040 --> 01:24:00,600
much faster than anything else.
Second best thing is probably

1488
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:03,240
eating together or that.
Yeah, eating, going out

1489
01:24:03,240 --> 01:24:04,120
together.
So singing.

1490
01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:05,760
Which is why we do.
Eating together.

1491
01:24:06,440 --> 01:24:08,160
Arranged in a party.
Or podcasts.

1492
01:24:08,360 --> 01:24:09,960
Or podcasts.
That's another one.

1493
01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:13,000
So Robin, it's been so lovely
having you and hopefully we'll

1494
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:15,160
do a Part 2, get through the
rest of the questions.

1495
01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:16,000
It's been a great.
Pleasure.

1496
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:17,680
Thank you so much.
Thank you.