The “Don’t Talk About Money” Culture That Holds You Back

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What does success look like for
you?

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Why are you doing this?
And very few say because I want

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to make money.
Why do some people make money

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while others play it safe and
miss out?

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Jamie Roberts has spent a decade
betting on people deciding who's

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worth backing.
So if you are better like who's

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on that conveyor belt to
constantly churn out that better

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way of working you've.
Got to be careful about numbers

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not dictating our world.
Yeah, I was going to.

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That's my next question for you.
I do like nice stuff.

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It's probably the most important
training course you can you can

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receive.
He'll show you how investors

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really think, when to risk it,
when to walk, and most

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importantly, how to back
yourself.

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And I promise you, the number is
always either

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5102030405060708090A-100.
It's always very round ballpark.

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Yeah, yeah.
People who have stuff going on

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outside of work.
I'm significantly more stable.

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And I'm really flattered,
honoured and delighted that

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you've seen this as a valuable
session as well to come here to

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give you time.
It's definitely been valuable

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for me.
I know people are going to

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definitely find it interesting.
So yeah.

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Thank you for having me.
I was thinking of how to

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introduce you, and I think the
best way for people to

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understand what you do is to go
back to The Apprentice when all

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those cannon fodder, I'm going
to call them cannon fodder

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candidates, all naive and
optimistic.

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We're trying to get an
investment for their business

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and the whole show of all those
seasons is about them coming in

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and they present their business
plans and then they get put

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through a series of tasks.
And then he whistles out, you

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know who's good, who isn't every
week.

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And then you left at the end
with the one that gets £250,000

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for their business. 50% of the
business goes to Lord Sugar, 50%

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stays.
Let's talk about it.

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But basically it's, it's a fight
for that investment.

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And, and the hope is, of course,
that OK, by associating yourself

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then with Lord Sugar, you get
all these other benefits, which

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turned out not always to be the
case because sometimes when they

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hear I'm Lord Sugar's business
partner, it's like, yeah.

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And but that's a different
story.

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But basically, you're the Lord
Sugar times 50 plus businesses.

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You do this all the time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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But basically, you decide who
gets the money.

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That is your role.
Am I correct in in later terms.

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OK.
So how would you describe

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yourself, you know, in more sort
of the polished way?

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Yeah.
So I, so I'm the manager,

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partner and chairman of
investment committee for WI FM

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Equity Partners.
So we see about 1500

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opportunities a year for
businesses and entrepreneurs

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looking for funding and we
invest in about 1% of them.

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We do, it's about 1% and it's
been 1%.

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I've been at WI FM for for 12
years and, and the person who

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trained me to do how I trained
me to do what I do, Paul David,

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they and the two Davids one
pool, they always just say to me

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we only ever convert 1 in 100
and the number's been one in 100

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since sort of private investing
began in the UK.

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And I was pretty sceptical.
And actually, I look back over

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the 12 years I've been at Wyfem
and it is one in 100, it's still

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one in 100.
So mean.

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So it's, it's really interesting
because there's A, and I'm sure

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we'll talk about this, but it's
not.

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So as a fund manager, we make
our money by investing in

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businesses.
So we are absolutely, if I could

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change that 1% to 2%, YFM would
be twice as big.

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You'll need fewer people because
we spend so much time looking at

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businesses and working with
businesses that we then decide

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not to win, to invest in.
So we, we actively want to do

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more.
The reason we don't do more is

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either because the business
isn't, isn't quite ready for

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the, for the investment.
It's not quite what we do or we

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just can't agree commercial
terms to invest in the business.

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So the selection criteria for I,
I'm for entrepreneurs, I imagine

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they feel massively frustrated
by people like me because they

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sit here and think you're only
investing one in 100.

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That's mean the words you used.
It's why don't you invest in

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more?
And it's because we're investing

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other people's money.
So we go out and raise funds

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from our investors and we tell
them this is our our process for

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making investments and working
with the companies and

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delivering value.
So we have to go through this

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journey to decide which ones we
think are going to work, not

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work, which are right for us,
which fall within our criteria.

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OK.
So just to be clear, it it looks

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like your default is basically
no.

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Someone walks through the door,
very excited.

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It's no.
Yeah, so, so it's a great that I

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can see that we, the way one of
my colleagues talks about it is

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our job is finding 9999% of the
time we're finding reasons to

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politely say it's not you, it's
us politely declining because

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you work really hard to get
people to come and talk about

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their businesses and you don't
want to be rude.

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So you try and give constructive
feedback, but ultimately you are

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saying it's it's not for us and
nobody really wants to hear

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that.
The other 1% of the time we're

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saying we desperately want to
invest in your business, please

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choose us.
Please choose us.

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Please choose us because there's
lots of people like us.

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OK, but that's extremely right.
And basically it hardly ever

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happened and and the default is
no.

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So how do you make that
decision?

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Within seconds sometimes?
I mean, how quickly?

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So we do, we do quite a lot of
work on conscious bias,

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unconscious bias.
We try and avoid the making a

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snap judgement when somebody
walks in the room, when somebody

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starts talking to us.
You can, you can quite easily.

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If somebody feels like us,
that's really easy to warm to

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them as they will naturally like
people who look, sound and feel

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like us.
But the reality is people who

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look, sound and feel like me as
an investor probably aren't the

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right people to be running a
business because they're running

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a trading business, operating
business.

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I'm running an investment
business.

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So we do work quite hard with
the teams to, to get past that

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first try not to make a decision
in the first half an hour of the

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meeting.
It worked really hard.

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We've got a, there's a process
you go through which is to tell

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us your story, like get to the
end of the story before you

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start making the, before you
start making the decision in

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your head.
I think the reality is sometimes

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people walk in the room and you
will, you will go.

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Actually, I just can't, not when
they first walk in, but within a

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few minutes you can sit there
and go.

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Actually, this is going to feel
quite difficult for us.

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OK, so if you are going to take
someone's seriously, someone's

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business seriously, what's the
first sign indication that they

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will give you to make you think,
which is obviously the one out

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of 100?
Yeah, so, So what?

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So for me, I like to be quite
prepared going into a meeting.

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So whilst we, it sounds like we
see a lot, so we see 1500

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opportunities a year.
I've got 65 people that work

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within YFM.
So if you let's say 38 weeks, 36

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weeks of the year, 46 weeks of
the year that everybody works 40

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hours a week, the 65 people,
they're not looking at a huge

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volume of, of opportunities.
It's a big number as a firm, but

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individually it's not.
So we quite like to people who

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share the information in advance
so we can read it, think about

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it.
That's a, that's a tick for us

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because we want to go to the
meeting and form.

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Yeah, because they're proud of
what they're doing.

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Scratch our heads a bit with
people who say, let let me talk

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to you about the business on the
phone.

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Cool was happy to do that and
then I'll get in the room and

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I'll present it to you and then
I'm a bit of a why wouldn't you

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send us just a bit more
information in advance so I

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could do some proper thinking.
So that's that's one thing I

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that's probably a personal
bugbear I sort of thing I'm now

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going to turn up to that
meeting.

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I'm not going to be able to be
that well informed.

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It's a bit of a blind meeting.
Of course, I think any yeah,

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preparation professionally, you
want to be as prepared as you

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can be so that you know what
you're doing.

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You put the information
beforehand and then the meetings

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was more meaningful because
you're talking about critical

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details and you know a deeper
level instead of the surfacey,

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sort of almost fluffy gimmicky.
And never forget.

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So we're selling to the company
as well.

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So whilst we only invest in one
in 100 that we see we have to

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start work and meet like as soon
as something comes through the

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door, we're working quite hard
to win it, even if we're going

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to decide we don't want to do
it.

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Because if you don't, if you're
not positive and upbeat at the

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beginning, it's quite hard for
us to win them back.

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So we go into everything
absolutely with the mindset of

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we want to win this opportunity.
Because if we don't, if we, if

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we sit there asking lots of
difficult questions and being

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all aloof like people think
investors are, they're not going

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to warm to us as people.
They're not going to want to

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take our money.
Yeah.

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So you go in there thinking,
motivated to win this

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opportunity, but at the same
time you know that only one in

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100 are worth it and you know
all the reasons why you wouldn't

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invest.
And you've got them all too well

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in your mind, and you're trying
not to be too negative.

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So it's really interesting thing
that because one in 100 work for

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us, it doesn't mean the 99
others won't work for somebody

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else, but it's just the the bit
of the journey that we do with

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our two main strategies.
It just means that quite a lot

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of them don't fit with that.
And and back to the how we how

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we present when we meet people
the first time.

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If we look at the TV shows that
people that people say to me,

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oh, what do you do?
And when I sort of say, oh, what

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I did, I mean, I tend to sort of
say, oh, I work for a bank or

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something because it's just
easier than trying to explain it

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or yeah.
And then if you go a bit deeper

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and you explain it, people will
automatically say, oh, like

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Dragons den or like The
Apprentice apprentice.

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Yeah.
And I sort of go, yeah, yeah,

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kind of.
But if we behaved in that way to

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companies coming into us, we
wouldn't exist.

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No, because they bring they
bring something different

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through the process, right?
They bring something different

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to what we bring.
They bring a profile and a

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stuff, whereas we're sitting say
actually we're professional

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investors, we want to work with
you on the journey.

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That on average is sort of five
to seven years.

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So we're going on a long journey
with them.

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If we behaved in a obtuse way to
them at the beginning, why would

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they want to?
Why would they choose us?

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Yeah, true.
I think Lord Sugar's really

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lucky, isn't he?
He can get away with his.

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Yeah, he they have platforms,
they're very successful, they're

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very good.
But yeah, I think the you don't

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go just go on those shows for
the for the investment, the like

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people go, you've done it.
People go on those shows because

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there's it's a big platform
that's profile I get to, I get

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to push my product.
Do you think Dragons Den really

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is an 8 minute advert on prime
time BBC television?

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I mean, it's an awesome, it's an
awesome opportunity for

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entrepreneurs to go and talk
about their business.

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It is.
You definitely get the platform

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to showcase yourself.
You're still with, you know,

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many have continued with their
businesses and many have gone

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very much into immediate
direction and forgotten

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completely about that business
plan that they once put on their

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table.
But it's great for us.

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So if I think when I was growing
up, so I'm 43, so I grew up in,

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I was born in 1982.
You had Luke Johnson of Pizza

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Express frame fame, did a little
bit on TV about going into

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businesses, like walking the
floor.

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There was a chapter for him
whose name I can't remember.

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Then we had Wall Street film in
the 80s, but that's like that

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was like the the end of sort of
business on TV.

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So for now, whilst it sooner
people didn't think about us

227
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,560
like Dragon's Den because we're
not quite behaviourally like

228
00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:36,520
that or or like The Apprentice,
it's still better.

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00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,000
People think business and
entrepreneurship is much cooler

230
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,600
today than it was when I was
growing up and that is because

231
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of the TV shows.
Now we succeed.

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We we celebrate more
entrepreneurialism and business

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success than we ever have
before.

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We do, we do.
But like with The Apprentice,

235
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you'll get many that are very
upbeat about their businesses,

236
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very confident, you know, and
then you can see that as

237
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enthusiasm, but you can also see
it as arrogance very often.

238
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And like not my businesses, you
know.

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How much of that do you see and
how do you sort of draw the the

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00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,240
distinction between genuine
confidence that you think, yeah,

241
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,240
that that's a person with Becky
and they know they really

242
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believe versus.
Yeah, it, it's hard, isn't it?

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If you think starting a business
and you're doing this with the

244
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podcast, right, to start
something from fresh, it's

245
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really hard.
So you do have to have an

246
00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,960
element of self belief because
lots of people will knock you

247
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down.
So when I meet founders or or

248
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,440
people running businesses, my
starting point is this person is

249
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is probably a bit different to
most people because they're

250
00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:43,040
taking so much risk to do what
they're doing.

251
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So you sort of have to forgive
them for sometimes behaving

252
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:47,720
forgive.
Them I love.

253
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It, but you can't judge them.
I think sometimes you sort of

254
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go, you do get founders who can
come across.

255
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,240
If you met them in the pub and
they talked about their business

256
00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,360
in that way in the pub, I'd
probably sort of turn the other

257
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,640
way and talk to somebody else.
But actually, I do want people

258
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,800
to come in and be really proud
of what they've done and be

259
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:07,920
quite, this is going to look
great.

260
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,360
The ones who come in and tell us
that they've developed the next

261
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,240
Google, Facebook, you know,
whatever, it's great.

262
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,600
But the chance, you know, that's
such an infinite, infinite, like

263
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,200
really small chance that they've
done that.

264
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,480
I struggle with that.
But the, the people who come in

265
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:24,600
and say, look, this is what I've
got.

266
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This is what I've done.
This is how I've done it.

267
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This is why it's going to be
awesome over the next five

268
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years.
I I love that.

269
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,960
Yeah, I suppose as a, as a
business owner as well, you've

270
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:34,200
got to be careful who you're
speaking to.

271
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,000
So if you're speaking to, you
know, your mum in law or the

272
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:38,080
next one AB, you're not going to
go.

273
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,320
This is why my business is going
to really do well in five years

274
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:42,920
and start going to numbers
because they'll be like.

275
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You're.
Crazy basically.

276
00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,440
So yeah, I suppose.
But but to an investor, you

277
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,640
really have to go into that.
So when you look at personality

278
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,200
drive and then you look at hard
numbers and then you look at the

279
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,800
actual concept, whether that
concept has legs.

280
00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,240
But you were saying you have to
understand the concept because

281
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,000
it might be different industries
that maybe you're not that

282
00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,120
familiar with in sectors.
But but let's say out of those

283
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:15,200
three sort of idea, whether it's
feasible numbers and person,

284
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,320
what do you think would take the
most weight people?

285
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,160
Oh, right.
It's always, always, always

286
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,600
people.
So I would back, I would say

287
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,440
we've done but it's why phones
been investing for 43.

288
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,280
It's been around for a long time
and if we look back, we've we've

289
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:35,840
done really well with great
people with not great products

290
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:42,000
and difficult markets.
If you don't have great people

291
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,760
or if you have people that just
can't execute, it doesn't matter

292
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,680
how great the product is or how
great the market is, it's going

293
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:50,600
to be really hard if they can't
execute.

294
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,720
So we don't run businesses.
We back people to run their

295
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:55,960
businesses.
So we don't have nobody at

296
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,080
Wi-Fi, Amazon operator, we we
set on boards, we're strategic.

297
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,920
We help with strategic
direction, but we're not in

298
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:03,560
there everyday running the
business.

299
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,320
So we've got to back them to run
their business and.

300
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,240
Deliver them OK, that, that's
super interesting.

301
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,440
You know, as a, a marketer, you
know, I, I will see a lot of

302
00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,160
businesses and I'll, I have to
understand how they work, how

303
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:17,680
they run.
I have to understand where they

304
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,480
get their sales.
You know what, what's their main

305
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,320
source and across various
industries.

306
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,360
And you can sort of, you start
to get an idea quite quickly

307
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,440
whether some of their plans, you
know, they want to launch

308
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,760
something, you know, you kind of
have an idea.

309
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:37,240
And then, but you, you do get to
see businesses from that

310
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,600
financial angle.
And sometimes the business owner

311
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,280
as well.
There might be, this is maybe

312
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,000
for younger businesses, for
newer businesses, they will come

313
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,240
to you with an idea, but when
it's too much like, oh, look at

314
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,880
this idea can, can you basically
make all of it happen?

315
00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:59,800
And then there's not the sort of
strategic analysis, intelligence

316
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:02,080
and drive that is definitely a
worry to.

317
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,120
Yeah, that's hard.
Can you just do it?

318
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:05,600
Yeah.
So it comes back to that.

319
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,800
We invest in one in 100 because
some of them, some of the

320
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,960
businesses we meet want more
from us than we can give them.

321
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:13,400
Yeah.
So if we meet a business and we

322
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,840
go think the team's really
great, think the market's really

323
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,640
great, think the product's
really great, but they need

324
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,120
somebody who's going to get
really heavily involved, open

325
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,640
doors, help them to help them
with the next tech development

326
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,160
and and do something more.
We sort of say, well, that's not

327
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:29,720
us.
We can't do we really can't do

328
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:30,880
that.
We don't want you to take our

329
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:31,480
money.
It's.

330
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,640
The open doors thing, so the,
the most common thing for the

331
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,480
younger ones, the raw ones, they
come in and go look, I've got

332
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:38,880
this really good idea.
I've got this website.

333
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,800
That's right.
Can you just go and open doors?

334
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,760
Go get me some sales please.
Yeah, that we get that a lot.

335
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,160
You get that a lot.
What does the net one look like?

336
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,840
One of the questions we get is
can we sell to the other WI FM

337
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,760
portfolio companies?
So we've got 56 portfolio

338
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,640
companies and they will, not all
of them, but most businesses we

339
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,160
meet will say, oh, we'd love the
opportunity to go and pitch to

340
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,880
your portfolio companies to
which I say, yeah, that's

341
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:04,920
brilliant.
But if we invest in you, do you

342
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,319
want to hear from the other 55
trying to sell their products to

343
00:17:08,319 --> 00:17:13,319
you because because they don't.
So we'll absolutely be helpful.

344
00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:18,160
If so, often portfolio company
will come to us and say we've

345
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,640
we've got this, we're targeting
this company or or this person

346
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,599
we want to sell to and we can
see that on LinkedIn.

347
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,119
You're connected to them or
you're a second connection.

348
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,720
What's that?
Is there anything there that you

349
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,960
can help us with?
And absolutely, if we can help,

350
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:34,920
of course we will and we're well
networked.

351
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,000
So we can do that.
We will help provide.

352
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,520
So a lot of our companies want
to go into the US.

353
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,440
We've got quite a lot of
experience of backing businesses

354
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,680
going to the US.
So if somebody says we want to

355
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:47,280
move in, we want to open up in
the US.

356
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,360
What can you do to help us?
We sort of say, look, here are

357
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:53,720
the 10 great non execs we know
or advisors who will join your

358
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,000
board or come into the business
as a consultant and they'll help

359
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,560
you look around corners.
But it's not me, it's not it's

360
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,840
not our team, it's not Y FM S
who can do that.

361
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:05,000
But we there's not many sectors.
We don't know somebody that can

362
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,600
go in and help, but as an
operator rather than investor.

363
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,880
And I do encourage people to
think really hard about what

364
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:12,960
they want.
So do they want an investor

365
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,880
who's there to put money into
the business and help as much as

366
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,640
they can or do they want to
recruit an operator?

367
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,520
So when somebody says to me can
you open doors, I said, well, I

368
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,480
can give you the money to
recruit a sales director or a

369
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,840
marketing director, but I can't
go and do can't be selling for

370
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,400
you.
But sometimes it's, look, here's

371
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,360
the idea.
Can you just run my business for

372
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:38,800
me and so tell me what to do at
every stage and you know, yeah,

373
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,560
that that's a tricky 1.
Yeah, it's the can you bring,

374
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,440
you probably get this more than
we do, but can you bring your

375
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,440
profile to my business?
At which point you end up sort

376
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,760
of saying, well, I, I, I assume
I can give you, if I give you my

377
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,440
profile, then I'm, I'm sort of
investing quite a lot in your

378
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,680
business because if your
business doesn't do great, that

379
00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,240
impacts my, that impacts my
profile.

380
00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:59,800
It's.
A Co branding thing, Yeah.

381
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:06,080
So I suppose you deal with risk.
That is the emotion that you

382
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,680
deal with all the time.
And you probably define risk

383
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,320
differently to the average
person because you're exposed to

384
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,600
it all the time.
So how do you think about risk?

385
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,560
Yeah.
So risk reward, right.

386
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,680
I believe risk reward is 100%
balanced in a in a normal

387
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,040
market.
So sometimes credit crunch,

388
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,640
everybody was overpricing risk
and worrying about risk too

389
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,600
much.
And sort of post COVID when

390
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,920
money was sort of free, people
were under pricing risk.

391
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,520
But if you look back over time,
there is no reward without risk.

392
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,120
So when we see, and that's not
just for investors, that's for

393
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:43,440
founders.
We see people who have these

394
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,200
massive exits and have done
really, really well and people

395
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:47,800
talk about the overnight
success.

396
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,520
That's ignoring the 10 years of
risk they took to get to the

397
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,280
overnight success.
And I, so I for us it's all we

398
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,280
try and quantify which is really
difficult.

399
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:04,280
How are we going to feel if this
business gets sold for £500

400
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:09,200
million in five years time?
How much, what sort of return

401
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,720
are we making on our money and
how are we going to feel?

402
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,560
So if we make, if the Business
Today he's got a million or two

403
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,760
of revenue and ten members of
staff and it's going to and we

404
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,920
think we sell it for 500 million
and we make 10 times our money.

405
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,600
Does that feel good for the
risks we've taken?

406
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,240
Because you could have got to
visualize what's the business

407
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,920
got to look like to sell for 500
million?

408
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:32,880
What's going to happen from here
to here?

409
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,840
And if all that happens and we
make 10 times the money, are we

410
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,200
happy with that?
Or are we saying that's not

411
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,760
quite enough?
And we try and think about it a

412
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,000
bit like that rather than what's
the day what, what are we

413
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,760
investing on day one?
It's more about when this goes

414
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,760
really well, are we going to
make enough money at the other

415
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:50,920
end?
So you can be nice.

416
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So what's a a red flag that will

417
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,800
torch a deal pretty much
straight away?

418
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,000
Lying.
Lying.

419
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:02,840
Oh, that's a strong word, isn't
it?

420
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,320
Deliberately misrepresenting.
Well, that is again, like The

421
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,680
Apprentice candidates ACV, where
it's like they there was one,

422
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,640
which is really funny.
I actually rewatched it the

423
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,040
other day because I was doing
some research for something and

424
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,920
one of the candidates didn't
know the differences between,

425
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,120
you know, gross profit and all
this just basic terms, didn't

426
00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:23,680
understand.
And then basically gave the

427
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,480
wrong impression of how much
money the business was making

428
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,200
and a lack of knowledge.
And all of it sort of came

429
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,760
together in one awful encounter
with Claude Litner, I think it

430
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:34,160
was of.
A test.

431
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:35,520
I've seen that, yeah.
Horrific.

432
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,960
And he ended up with me because
he that's his part of it, isn't

433
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:40,280
it?
Is to play that I'm the suit.

434
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,080
You think Alan Sugar's bad cop?
I'm.

435
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,000
Actually.
Claude Litner But so, so that's

436
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,280
interesting because for us as
investors, it comes back to this

437
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,600
different style.
I don't expect founders to know

438
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,240
all of that stuff because
they're not, they're not

439
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,000
accountants, they're not
investors, they're not bankers.

440
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,440
They're running their business.
So they've got no sales,

441
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,920
marketing, tech, HR, they're
doing everything.

442
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:07,800
So they're in everything.
So I, we never, we don't, we

443
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,800
take a different approach.
That's if we ask a question,

444
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,040
they don't and the answer we're
like, well, that's, that's cool.

445
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:13,640
Of course you're a small
business, you've got loads of

446
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:14,680
people.
It'd be great if you could come

447
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,960
back to us with that.
And if you don't know how to get

448
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,080
that, then we can help you do
that.

449
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,120
And actually, if you've if
you're on, if it's a numbers

450
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,760
numbery question, then you're
probably using one of half a

451
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,600
dozen software tools.
We've got people at Wife M that

452
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,400
we can just just give them login
access to your stuff and they

453
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,560
can go in and do all that work
and you don't have to.

454
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,400
Yeah, they can answer those
questions.

455
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,200
It does get complicated.
It does, and we talk so we don't

456
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:40,360
judge.
We don't.

457
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:45,280
We don't consider not knowing
something a red flag, somebody

458
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,880
who deliberately misrepresents.
So if they say I've got 50

459
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,480
customers and I'm generating
this much revenue and then we

460
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,600
get into exclusivity and then
when we start doing the work you

461
00:22:55,600 --> 00:23:01,040
realise they've got 15
customers, but 45 or 35 have

462
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,720
said they really want to buy it.
Yeah.

463
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:07,320
All that that's quite difficult
because it's I think about

464
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,000
investing is it's like getting
married.

465
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,200
So I've been with my wife.
It's like getting married.

466
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:13,360
It's like getting married.
No, I do.

467
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:14,960
I do.
I absolutely think it's like you

468
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,320
married.
Somebody said I was, I was at an

469
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:22,480
event earlier this week and
somebody said the average Angel.

470
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,040
So Angel investing in the UK is
really early stage investing.

471
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,720
The average Angel investment in
the UK is longer than the

472
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,600
average marriage in America.
I don't know if that fact's

473
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,600
true, but I'm definitely going
to take it as my own.

474
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,200
So you meet, we meet a new, we
meet a new opportunity.

475
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,240
We're going to get to know them
really well.

476
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,520
And then at some point we're
going to decide actually, this

477
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,400
is we want to go on this journey
together.

478
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:47,000
And then we're going to invest
some money in their business and

479
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:48,560
they're going to give us some
shares and then we're going to

480
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,840
build the value together.
And then at the end of it,

481
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,200
hopefully there's some great
event.

482
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:56,120
If somebody behaves, and if we
behave in a way that's

483
00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:59,120
unpleasant or they behave in a
way that makes us nervous before

484
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:03,480
we've transacted or got married,
we sort of know what's gonna

485
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,600
happen on the other side.
Yeah.

486
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,560
So we do think about it as a
we're building a relationship,

487
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,720
marriage and whatever you show,
however we all behave now is a

488
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,440
really good example to how we're
gonna what.

489
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,560
Happens if you get married and
you want the divorce.

490
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,320
It's tough.
So it happens.

491
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,880
It's really, yeah, it's tough.
It's really tough.

492
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,400
And ultimately you end up trying
to say.

493
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,200
The documentation includes lots
of stuff to try and.

494
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,840
Yeah, legal things and this
protection in place, but it's

495
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,240
going to be.
Protection for everybody.

496
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:31,640
Like every divorce, it's going
to be yeah.

497
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,680
It's going to be, it's not going
to be helpful in creating value,

498
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:39,040
but we've got lots of examples
where the management team has

499
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,360
said we don't want to do this
anymore.

500
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,440
It's really tiring running a
business.

501
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,280
So sometimes teams will say to
us is we've been at this for

502
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,160
five years now, we want to, to
either want to stop work now,

503
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,080
want to keep our equity, let's
go and recruit our successors,

504
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:54,440
brilliant.
Let's go and do that together.

505
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,440
So you can, if you're open, like
all things, you get through the

506
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,840
bumps in the road just by being
open.

507
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,840
The the ones that are difficult
is if people aren't open.

508
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,080
OK, what if they're a little bit
too open and they're like too

509
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,480
optimistic and they're
overstretching their their their

510
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,400
ambitions and that do you see
that quite quickly?

511
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,680
Do you spot that you know
they're trying to stretch out

512
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,800
what they they close plan and I.
Think that's cool as long as

513
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:19,760
it's fundable.
Yeah.

514
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,400
So we, so we get nervous about
blind optimism, but people

515
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,520
coming to us test and learn.
We we think we really like the

516
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,640
test and learn philosophy.
So yeah.

517
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,840
So I want to go into the US so
somebody got a business in the

518
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,720
UK turning over 20 million makes
a couple of million profit.

519
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,200
I want to go and open up in the
US.

520
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:41,560
If the plan is I want to open an
office in, I don't know,

521
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,240
Washington.
And here's a really good reason

522
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,320
why I'm Washington.
I'm going to recruit 3 people.

523
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,480
I don't really know what I'm
going to do after I've recruited

524
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,320
the three people, but I'm going
to try that.

525
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,920
That's really cool.
That's, that's ambition.

526
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,440
We'll try it.
We're going to get some stuff

527
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:54,400
wrong.
We're going to get some stuff

528
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,120
right.
And if the more right we get,

529
00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:59,080
we'll recruit more people, we
might open another office.

530
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:05,240
The ones that the ones that
would be nervous, orange flag I

531
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,120
guess are the ones who say I've
got 20 million of revenue in the

532
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:11,400
UK and 100 people.
I want 5 million investment

533
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,840
because I'm going to go and
recruit 300 people in the US

534
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,000
that open 30.
OK, yeah, I get it.

535
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:17,960
Yeah, that's extreme.
Yeah.

536
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,920
And it doesn't, it doesn't mean
they can't do it.

537
00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:22,360
It's just executionally quite
tough.

538
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,480
Yeah, maybe step your toes.
Yeah, you'd be surprised how

539
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,720
many times we see business plans
and we say to people, right, so

540
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,960
by the end of this year, you're
going to have an extra 20 staff.

541
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,920
So that means you've got to
recruit 2 people a month on

542
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,200
average.
How many people do you have to

543
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,480
meet to recruit to?
And most people will know off

544
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,280
the top of the head, you know,
in their sector probably got to

545
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,040
meet 5 to recruit to, right?
So you've got to be interviewing

546
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,720
10 people a month, every month
for the next 12 months you can

547
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,080
see and you start to play it
back.

548
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,040
Actually, maths can be useful.
Yeah, yeah, it can be useful

549
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:56,720
when you break it down like
that.

550
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,240
OK.
So what's 1 type of risk that

551
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,360
people should actually take more
often, you know, business

552
00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:06,840
owners?
It's quite, quite a general

553
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,480
question, I guess, but you know.
I think in the UKI think in the

554
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,080
US there's people are more and
this is going to come straight

555
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:15,960
back at me, right, Because
investors are exactly the same.

556
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,600
I'm not sure we take enough risk
in the UK generally.

557
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,080
I don't think, I don't think we,
when people say why doesn't the

558
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,680
UK build asset companies like
they did in the US, part of that

559
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,840
is because the US is bigger.
So it's multiple times bigger.

560
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,040
So of course their, their exits
are going to be multiple times

561
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,000
bigger than ours.
I think there is a, it's sort of

562
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,760
quite British, isn't it, to not
be out there.

563
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,040
You'd be surprised how many one
of the questions we asked really

564
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,360
early first meeting is what does
success look like for the

565
00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:49,360
founder?
So what does success look like

566
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:50,680
for you?
Why are you doing this?

567
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,200
And very few say because I want
to make money.

568
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,320
Yeah, Oh my gosh, this is such
a.

569
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,320
You've just hit something that,
you know, this is definitely

570
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,320
being on my mind and I, I
interview a lot of people as

571
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,200
part of this podcast and I, I
get a lot of insights as well

572
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,680
into, into, you know, with
business owners and things like

573
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,320
that.
And there is, there is a thing

574
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,200
about the UK being a little bit
like that sort of humble.

575
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,440
It's not nice to show off.
Put that down.

576
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,000
Don't be so, you know, out
there, don't do the personal

577
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,000
brand.
Just, you know, that's not very

578
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,960
English.
Just maybe just calm down.

579
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:28,880
You're putting yourself out
there.

580
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,080
Whereas, you know, I grew up in
South Africa and actually that

581
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,400
was a very entrepreneurial
country.

582
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,360
It was building sizzling sort of
like the UAE.

583
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:39,920
Now there's like an
entrepreneurial, you know, like

584
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,960
flame almost when you're going
to the country, you almost feel

585
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:43,880
it.
It's like a sizzle in the

586
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,000
streets.
You can feel that business

587
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,960
energy.
And in America you feel the

588
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,440
energy as well.
And in the UK there is that.

589
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,480
And The thing is we're, we also
don't want to be too mean about

590
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,360
the British, the way Brits run
their businesses, because they

591
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,760
are such grafters.
And, you know, we get down and

592
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,720
we don't talk a lot.
We work, we get things done.

593
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,000
We're very, you know, we move
through stuff.

594
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,440
But yes, we probably don't put
ourselves on a stage enough.

595
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,600
We probably don't ask for enough
money.

596
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,000
That includes from our clients.
And we're not openly well open

597
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,520
about money because it's rude
to.

598
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,040
Be in the British culture, we
talk about it.

599
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,720
We have phrases in the UK, don't
we have old money, New money.

600
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,560
It's really weird, isn't it?
Like what?

601
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:27,920
What does that?
I don't know what that means.

602
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,400
What does new money mean?
Old, old money?

603
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:36,960
We don't we the absolute bugbear
for me that we will take a

604
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,880
positive and the media, let's
blame the media, right, because

605
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,200
that's easy.
The media make positives,

606
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:45,760
negatives.
And I was talking to a

607
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,360
journalist from abroad sheet a
couple of months ago and I said,

608
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,040
why did you represent this
successor?

609
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,560
So when Dark Trace got sold,
instead of the headline being

610
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,320
Dark Trace gets sold for many
billions of pounds to the US,

611
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,240
the US investor is going to keep
Dark Trace based in the UK

612
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,920
female founder success story.
We don't have enough of those.

613
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,160
Like why aren't we making this
like a really big thing?

614
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:13,200
Why was the headline another UK
business sells out too soon?

615
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,080
And and the the journalist said
to me, great question Jamie.

616
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,080
So what happens is we print the
the journalist and this lady had

617
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,760
written the the article.
So I had written the article.

618
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,120
I submit it to the online editor
and the online editor has

619
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,360
control of to what the hook is
on the website.

620
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,720
And that article was online and
had got very little click

621
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,720
through rate by because it's mid
morning.

622
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,800
As soon as the the online editor
changed that headline to British

623
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,440
success story sells out, another
British success story sells out

624
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,080
too soon.
The click rate was 40 times

625
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,800
faster.
So we blame the media, but of

626
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,720
course, now the media just
presents back to us what what

627
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,520
we're conditioned to like.
So I do, I think that

628
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:02,040
Britishness is, is a bit self.
We don't we we're always looking

629
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,640
to knock.
I think there's a habit if we

630
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,200
knock people down rather than I
think other countries are better

631
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,280
at celebrating their success,
celebrating their heroes

632
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,800
continually.
Whereas we I think as a as a

633
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,680
culture can be a bit too quick
to to point and poke.

634
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,440
I've got someone actually coming
on that that will, you know,

635
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,520
guess that will talk about that,
you know, the cultural shift and

636
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:29,600
the mindset of of Brits and
whether we celebrate wealthy

637
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,720
people in this country, people
that have achieved things or

638
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,520
whether we go, oh, you're you're
posh tough or you're yeah,

639
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:36,800
you're rich.
So you wouldn't, you know,

640
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,360
you're not one of us.
It's like, yeah, it is such a

641
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,600
topic.
You stop being allowed an

642
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,120
opinion.
So I'm lucky enough to know

643
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,360
people who've done very well
through through work, through

644
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:53,200
network, and it's like they stop
being allowed an opinion.

645
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:55,520
It's because it becomes that
it's all right for you.

646
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,480
Yeah, it's all right for you.
Yeah.

647
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,600
And I do.
I do worry that they, we should

648
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,240
want those people to talk more.
We should want those people to

649
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,080
be out about more and being
listened to and and dare I say

650
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:09,560
being more involved around the
country.

651
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,360
But we sort of go the other way
and say, well, you, you, what do

652
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:14,480
you know?
No, no.

653
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,400
So, so This is why I love this
podcast so much.

654
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,400
And I love the fact that I can
host the podcast because there's

655
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,480
no room for that negative talk
in this space.

656
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,320
I just think that that all has
to change.

657
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,600
Let's get, you know, if we want
to grow the economy of this

658
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,840
country, we want to do well.
We want to be positive.

659
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,280
We want to have really good
lives, you know, make it, you

660
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,480
know, just enjoy our country,
build wealth, engineer our lives

661
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,040
so that they amazing.
Then we need to start being

662
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,120
positive.
We need to start really, you

663
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,680
know, rewarding ambition and
hard work.

664
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,640
And it doesn't matter where you
know your your beginnings, the

665
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,560
IT matters what work you've
done, what skills you've brought

666
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,560
in, how much heart you've put
into it.

667
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,160
That's what matters.
And everything else is

668
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,160
irrelevant really.
I agree and it and actually we

669
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,240
can all poke at the dangerous if
we talk about politics, but it's

670
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,400
very easy to blame the
government and meet yourself.

671
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,880
But actually the UK has the best
tax advantages for individuals

672
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,000
to invest in early stage
businesses in the world.

673
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,440
So SEISEIS venture capital
trusts, R&D, tax credits,

674
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,880
Innovate UK, all the regional
venture growth funds, there is

675
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,400
so much say government money,
it's our money, isn't it?

676
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,520
The government are giving back,
but the, the government have all

677
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,240
of these schemes out there to
encourage people to invest in

678
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,880
businesses that are growing.
So we're really good at that.

679
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,200
I think we're awesome at that
bit.

680
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:44,560
The bit that gets a business
from start up to 20 million of

681
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,120
revenue, the UK can't, there's
nowhere else you'd be better off

682
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,640
to do that financially.
And and that's before you get to

683
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,640
the legislative.
The UK is a great place legally

684
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,680
to build a business because the
the courts and the law is so

685
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,640
fair.
But once you get to that 20

686
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,800
million revenue, all of that
support starts to disappear

687
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,040
because we just don't have the
same.

688
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,000
It's like, that's enough success
now.

689
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:12,719
You shouldn't need help from the
the government tax advantage

690
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,320
schemes for people to invest in
your business because you're big

691
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:16,880
now.
Because actually I sort of go,

692
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,960
God, they need that.
Well, that's what if they said

693
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,840
you could keep accessing that
money from that investor base

694
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,760
until you're very big, That's
how we'd end up with very big

695
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:27,639
business.
Oh yeah.

696
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,639
I mean, that's just such
practical, excellent advice that

697
00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:33,239
you can be giving to the
government.

698
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,120
They need to listen.
They need to listen to people

699
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,600
that know about these things and
get proper advice.

700
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,679
Sometimes you think, but where
did you who, who advised you?

701
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,440
Did anyone in the
entrepreneurial world literally

702
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:45,719
advise you?
Have you had the conversation

703
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:51,520
with business people or not?
So it's, and it, so I, I talk to

704
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,840
a local MPA tiny bit through
somebody else I know.

705
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,440
So I've been introduced to him
and he, he genuinely Labour MP,

706
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,640
he genuinely wants to learn and
understand and you know, but

707
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,120
he's coming from a really low
base.

708
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,400
So he's trying to learn.
But he also, it's only, it's a

709
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,880
four year term or something.
Like how much, how much can you

710
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,480
expect them to learn and be
ready given everything else

711
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,960
they've got to do?
But yeah, I mean, that'd be my

712
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,040
absolute message.
We, we're really great at the

713
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,320
early stage, but if we could
just grow that a bit higher,

714
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,720
start saying actually we support
these businesses for much

715
00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:26,120
longer.
OK, So the businesses that you

716
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,240
do support, what separates like
a nice business, you know,

717
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,400
you're yeah, you're good.
You know you've got some

718
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,840
potential or whatever from one
that you know like OK, you are

719
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,720
really a business that can scale
up massively in the next 5

720
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:41,160
years.
We've kind of touched on this

721
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,240
but but.
Just so market, I mean you

722
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,800
ultimately come the amount of
times that I so you get two

723
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,360
types of opportunities.
One is there's a massive market

724
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:57,000
and our product is better or as
good as and we're going to

725
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,640
execute it really well and
that's exciting.

726
00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:02,760
It's hard, isn't it's not
impossible, but it's just a bit

727
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,680
harder because you've got lots
of people already supplying the

728
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,360
solution.
And if your product is X percent

729
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,720
better, it's great.
But you've got to convince

730
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,640
somebody to go through the
heartache of changing a piece of

731
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,000
software that's really difficult
so you can sit in front of it.

732
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:22,280
If I've got a software product
that's better than your software

733
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,280
product and you're more
established and I go to your

734
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,000
customers and say please swap to
mine because it's better.

735
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:30,680
It's a big change.
Just change, isn't it?

736
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:31,680
Everyone's busy.
Why would I?

737
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,760
How much better is better?
So if you're going into a market

738
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,360
that's already well served,
you've got to, it's got to be

739
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,640
materially better, but they can
still do really, really well.

740
00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:43,720
You just got to execute really,
really well.

741
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:46,120
So it comes back to the people
being top notch.

742
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,440
The other part of the other side
of that is people who say there

743
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,680
is a big market coming.
There is a market here that's

744
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,640
currently small, but it's
absolutely exploding.

745
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:02,360
So it's from a risk.
Risk for us probably the risk is

746
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,000
a bit higher because the market
might stop growing.

747
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:06,680
And if the market doesn't grow,
you've got no chance.

748
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,840
But the upside is bigger because
there's what we call white

749
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,320
space.
There's more white space to go

750
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,880
for because you're going to,
you're going to somebody and

751
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,000
saying you're currently doing
something in a way that's not

752
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,480
great.
My solution makes that 100 times

753
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,240
easier.
Yeah.

754
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,280
So we try and mix the 2, the
portfolio.

755
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,760
We don't do this too actively,
but we try and create a mix of

756
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,560
portfolios, the two different
types that we're going after.

757
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:32,960
Yeah.
There's this so much in business

758
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,760
and there's so many different
angles to approach it from.

759
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,440
But yes, if you've got that the
better product, the better

760
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:46,200
software, are you also able to
communicate it easily to say

761
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,440
that it's is there a road map to
that?

762
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,920
That's pretty obvious and then
and proven as well that it

763
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:58,320
translates, you know into a sale
that customers are moving to us

764
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,760
because we better.
But I also love that whole

765
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,720
execution thing that you were
talking about.

766
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,960
So if you are better like who's
on that conveyor belt to

767
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:16,200
constantly churn out that better
way of working, you know, and

768
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:17,920
how feasible is unscalable and
and.

769
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:19,840
What does the, what does the
plan look like?

770
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,600
So the, so if we're investing in
a Business Today with a million

771
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,800
of revenue, maybe there's 10 or
20 people in that business, but

772
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,600
the founders probably still do,
all the founder or founders are

773
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,120
still doing a bit of everything.
Well, that business is doing 30

774
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,080
million of revenue.
It's going to need team heads,

775
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,120
it's going to, it's going to be
management layers, it's going to

776
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:39,680
well, who are you, who are you
bringing?

777
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,480
Who are you bringing through to
do that?

778
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,440
So we talk a lot about people
planning organizational design

779
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,840
when this business, we, I know
we started this by saying we

780
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,200
could be negative and start from
no.

781
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,800
But when we're saying that when
this is when we go into an

782
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,400
investment, one of the things we
look at is in five years time

783
00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:00,720
when we're delivering 50 million
of revenue, what's the plus the

784
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:02,680
organogram.
So how are we bridging from the

785
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,800
organogram we've got today to
the organogram in five years

786
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,080
time?
Because we've probably got to

787
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,120
start bringing those people
through now because they're

788
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,720
going to need developing for
Year 5 or they're going to need

789
00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:14,600
hiring.
And that is a I'm not sure

790
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,960
people think about that bit
enough when they come to talk.

791
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,720
Yeah.
And they also don't think about

792
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,080
when they do hire these people,
OK.

793
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,480
So we're looking at CVS, we're
looking at whether people can do

794
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:24,440
the job.
You're bringing them in, you're

795
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,440
growing, but then also you're
thinking about culture or you're

796
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,880
thinking about, of course,
you'll get a feeling for a

797
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,520
person in the interview.
Hopefully there's a few

798
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,120
interviews, but, but, but once
they are on board, there's also

799
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,040
there's, you know, I find I
think we spoke about this even

800
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,720
earlier that there has to be
some process where well, as a,

801
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:47,320
as a founder, you want the
people working with you.

802
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,240
You never want to lose touch
with the way they working, you

803
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:54,080
know, with your company culture,
like with the absolute core

804
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,960
fundamental behaviour traits
that anyone in this business

805
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,720
should have, you know, honesty
and, you know, putting the

806
00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:03,320
client first, like actually
doing it and not saying that

807
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,000
they're doing it.
And, and, and there should be a

808
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,600
process to on board that and
then to just touch in with that

809
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,240
and ensure that you're not
losing as the business grows,

810
00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:16,120
that you're getting in people
that actually they're not right

811
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,000
and they're starting to tank the
business from within because

812
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,240
cracks form.
They'll communicate really badly

813
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:22,360
with a client, or even worse,
they won't communicate with a

814
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,320
client.
And they'll just sort of do

815
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,400
their work and the client has no
clue what's so all of that.

816
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,240
There's so much throughout that
growth that you then also have

817
00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:33,800
to think about and not lose
sight of.

818
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,400
Otherwise, you'll end up with
something that you never

819
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,560
intended.
So real, real example for us is

820
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,960
the, so when you were in that
growth hacking phase, sort of

821
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,760
pre us investing 10 to 20
people, probably it's not always

822
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,400
the case now, but probably in
one office or in one region and

823
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,360
they will get together a couple
of times a week.

824
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,160
Building a culture is hard, but
not too hard because you're all

825
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:01,920
together.
We're all in this together.

826
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,280
We're going to take over the
world.

827
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,520
There's not a lot of HR
processing and stuff.

828
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,480
You do everything you need to
do, but you're not worrying too

829
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,760
much about layers.
That is one type of

830
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,200
organization.
When you're 100 people, you've

831
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:15,560
suddenly got different
departments.

832
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,400
You're probably not, you're
probably not in the same

833
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,440
building.
Hopefully you are, but you might

834
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,320
be on different floors, you
might be on different teams and

835
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,160
stuff.
So one of the things we've seen,

836
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,040
it was an investment I made a
long time ago was and it went

837
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:27,840
really well, really quickly.
Brilliant.

838
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,600
That's what a great investment.
Aren't I smart?

839
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:35,480
And then what we found was the
the sales team was on boarding

840
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,360
clients and clients were saying,
oh, I'd love it if you had this

841
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,960
functionality.
Sales team were going, oh,

842
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,360
brilliant.
We'll put that in the, we'll put

843
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,040
that in the tech stack because
the tech team were somewhere,

844
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:46,440
they were in a different part of
the country.

845
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,480
So what was happening, the sales
team to get the sale, we'll just

846
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,240
say, yeah, we'll do that.
And then the tech stack was like

847
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:53,240
this.
And then customers were saying,

848
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:56,160
I've, you know, 6-9 months in
and I brought your product

849
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:57,560
because you were going to change
this.

850
00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,640
And the sales guys are then
saying, yeah, sorry, the tech

851
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,480
guys haven't done it.
The tech guys are saying, but

852
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,320
that was never in our road map.
So why have you promised that

853
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,120
one feature to that one
customer?

854
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,080
And it was, and it was fine.
We had about a year where we had

855
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,080
to tidy stuff up and get
everything right.

856
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,240
And we've exited that investment
and it was great for everybody.

857
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,280
But there was a even, we do this
all the time, and even we just

858
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,080
missed that moment where that
business had scaled so quickly

859
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,720
and had become desperate.
And it was nobody's fault.

860
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:26,280
Everyone was just really busy.
And what we found was the new

861
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,320
salespeople weren't quite
brought into the culture of all

862
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,040
together.
The salespeople were brought

863
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,720
into their target, their quota.
I'm going to hit my quota.

864
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,000
So they hit their quota and
they're doing a great job and

865
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,600
they're being celebrated.
Tech team who were doing

866
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,040
everything they'd agreed to do
in the year were then being

867
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,400
moaned up because churn was
high, because customers were

868
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,720
leaving, because they weren't
getting the product they'd been

869
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:49,680
sold.
Yeah, interesting, Interesting.

870
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,160
When I started, I joined a
consulting company in my career,

871
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,840
early days and an American one
and the culture there, you know,

872
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,560
the Accenture guys, all those
big consulting companies, they

873
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,320
bring consultants and
contractors.

874
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,880
But basically when you come into
the tech IT stuff, you come in

875
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:11,160
there, everyone gets a
consulting skills one O 1

876
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,000
course.
It's a three day course and you

877
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,040
get a communications course
because they will not let you go

878
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,600
near the client without that
training, even though you're

879
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,200
doing, you know, technical
things when you're sitting

880
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,360
behind the computer and doing
your business analysts, let's

881
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,160
say, they will not let you go
near them until you've passed

882
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:29,680
these things.
And it's really cool because

883
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,320
they'll teach you just they'll
give examples of things that can

884
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,680
happen, real life scenarios and
they'll teach you in a, in a

885
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,480
setting, you know, they'll set
something up and they'll teach

886
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,640
you how to behave and that it's
fantastic because you would be

887
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,120
surprised, you know, even now
how to how to, what's the

888
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,200
correct way to appear on a zoom?
And it's quite rude when you

889
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:48,960
have your camera off.
But just little things, you

890
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,520
know, little things that make so
much difference to just bring.

891
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,720
But yes, we're we're going into
the so I.

892
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,960
We.
Meet here. 1012, we have 12

893
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,720
investment managers if you like.
So they're sort of people

894
00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:01,480
joining the the investing, most
of them just joining the

895
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:02,640
investment world for the first
time.

896
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,040
Most of them are accountants,
unfortunately.

897
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:07,000
Mostly been through a bit.
Yeah.

898
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,880
I'm not an accountant.
You've got to be careful about

899
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,520
numbers not dictating our world.
Yeah, I was going on.

900
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,880
That's my next question for you.
My next question for you.

901
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,160
Actually, we'll be fine when we
bring people in is we do end up

902
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,800
talking to them a lot about sort
of two ears, one mouth.

903
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,240
So like you've, you know, used
them in that ratio.

904
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:26,960
So you should be listening more
than you're speaking always if

905
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,720
you're are you listening to
speak or listening to hear.

906
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,400
So too often people are
listening because they're

907
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,560
waiting for a gap, because they
want to show how smart they are.

908
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,720
Actually just really engage with
the pert Show your listening.

909
00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:39,200
Like just really engage.
Not a creepy stairway.

910
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,280
Just show you or actually do
stuff that shows your shows your

911
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,600
listening.
I don't know where those skills

912
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,400
are meant to be taught, but I
don't.

913
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,120
I suspect you were probably
quite lucky to go through that

914
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,080
sort of on boarding process
early in your career.

915
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,560
They really teach you, they
really teach you.

916
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,160
It's a fantastic training,
fantastic literally how to speak

917
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,080
to the client, you know, on how
to stand, what to do with your

918
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,920
hands, how to present, how to
everything, what what to say,

919
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,720
what not to say.
What happens in a crisis, You

920
00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:09,920
know, something goes wrong.
What do you do?

921
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:11,960
Who do you, who do you not
blame?

922
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,000
All that kind of thing.
And you think it's actually

923
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,080
quite basic, but it's also not,
because so many people get it

924
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:19,680
wrong.
Yeah, it's basically when you

925
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,640
know it, like that's the that's
the thing that there's one chap

926
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,920
who works for us now and he's
like you, you talk about all

927
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:27,760
this stuff, Jamie, like it's
really easy.

928
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,360
But then I can't, I'm not an
account addict really.

929
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,640
I'm not great with, I'm OK, I'm
good with numbers, but I'm not

930
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,400
great with numbers.
And I'll say to the the people

931
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,520
in the team who are just great
on Excel and can do all this

932
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,520
stuff, I'll be like, oh, wow, I
can't believe you can do that

933
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,880
thing with you've built this
thing and this Excel is getting

934
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:44,760
all very exciting.
I can't believe you can do that.

935
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,000
And because that's a hard,
tangible skill, I'm comfortable

936
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,320
in saying that to them and teach
me how to do that.

937
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,920
Whereas when it's a softer
skill, like engaging with

938
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,760
people, people who haven't been
taught it find it a bit harder

939
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,320
to say, please can you just
teach me how to engage with

940
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,360
people in the way you engage
with people?

941
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,160
It's probably the most important
training course you can, you can

942
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,120
receive, I mean, if you're
client facing, you know, because

943
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,800
maybe the developers who will
never, ever see the client

944
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,520
really don't need it.
But anyone in the business who's

945
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,480
talking to a client, they need
to know how to to run a meeting,

946
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,760
all of that, how to behave, how
to, what to say, what not to

947
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,520
say, how to present information,
everything.

948
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,680
And there's just a huge
kaleidoscope of things.

949
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,480
If you change the word client to
stakeholder and suddenly the IT

950
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,760
guys and girls do need to know
how to talk to people.

951
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,520
Because in that example I gave
earlier, if the the tech team

952
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,520
had a maybe they did.
This might go farther.

953
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,120
It is, but if the tech team were
more comfortable in

954
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,440
communicating with the sales
team, maybe the sales team would

955
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,400
have realized sooner what they
were, what they were getting

956
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,160
wrong.
So I do, we talk a lot about

957
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,920
everybody's your customer.
So if you need somebody in turn,

958
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,200
the wife owns 65 people, so it's
not massive, but we've offices

959
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,160
all around the UK, so there is a
bit of distance sometimes.

960
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,320
You need to be talking to
everybody.

961
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,280
If you need somebody to do
something for you, let's rely on

962
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,640
the fact they want to do it for
you rather than they should do

963
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,560
it for you.
That comes down to building a

964
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,920
good relationship, talking to
them, listening, all that stuff

965
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,600
that you would use for your
customers, but let's use it

966
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,840
internally as well.
Yeah, gosh, I could run away

967
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:23,280
with about 400 other statements.
I need to stick to the script

968
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,920
because we're we're moving
around a little bit.

969
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,320
OK.
So what is the the main

970
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,320
differentiator for you from a
lifestyle business and a

971
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,480
business that's got the
potential to be a proper

972
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,280
business, not a lifestyle
business basically?

973
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:44,480
Yeah, lifestyle's a great, a
great bucket, but it's really

974
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,800
changed, hasn't it since COVID.
So lifestyle before would be

975
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,640
considered, I would say when I
started my career in the city,

976
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:55,000
lifestyle would have been
considered lazy.

977
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,600
Whereas now we have people who
don't work very hard, We have

978
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,920
lifestyle, we have work life
balances, this whole bucket of

979
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,520
stuff.
And we also have the 24/7 on,

980
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,040
which is terrible because we've
all got our phones in our

981
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,520
pockets all the time.
So for me, lifestyle, if I meet

982
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:16,840
founders who talk about their
children, their families, going

983
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,520
on holiday, picking the kids up
from school, going to sports

984
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,720
days, their hobbies, that's
awesome because I need people to

985
00:48:22,720 --> 00:48:25,720
have something outside of work.
People who have stuff going on

986
00:48:25,720 --> 00:48:28,840
outside of work are
significantly more stable than

987
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:29,720
people.
Who stable?

988
00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:32,600
I like that word, absolutely.
Significantly more stable than

989
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,080
people who are working 150 hours
a week.

990
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,640
They're on it.
You know, all the tech bro stuff

991
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:41,160
that we get out of the US that
that worries me so for.

992
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:42,840
So I don't want people that do
that.

993
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,640
I don't want people coming in
looking shattered and wired and

994
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:47,680
chugging cans of Red Bull.
You'd be surprised how many

995
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,360
times that happens.
But I, I also look for people

996
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,360
who there is language that
people will use around.

997
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,920
So what does success look like
for you if people start talking

998
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,040
at 35 about wanting to retire in
two or three years time and

999
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,800
sitting on the beach.
And I don't mind that as an

1000
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,920
aspiration, but I just want to
check in that they're not

1001
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,040
already.
Can I ask you a question about

1002
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:10,960
that?
If the if you know you say that,

1003
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,760
do you expect someone to answer
in monetary terms or can they

1004
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:20,440
answer with an ambition?
So I, I want, I like people to

1005
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,960
talk about the ambition.
So what does success look like?

1006
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,400
I want to build a good people
say to me at WAFEN like, what

1007
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,280
does success look like?
I've been there for 12 years.

1008
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,000
I became manager partner six
months ago.

1009
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,280
So what does success look like
for me now because I've been

1010
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,040
working my way up to the top
job, if you like.

1011
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:37,240
What does success look like for
me now?

1012
00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:40,680
I want to build a great business
that I'm really proud of and I

1013
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,280
love seeing all the, the people
joining our business, not

1014
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,400
perhaps not knowing private
equity and then smashing it,

1015
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,160
doing really well.
That's the thing I'm most proud

1016
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,000
of.
We took everybody away a couple

1017
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:50,840
of weeks ago.
I love the fact we're in some

1018
00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:53,600
decent restaurant and it's
expensive and everyone's

1019
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:55,200
enjoying it.
I get a lot of satisfaction from

1020
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,240
that.
But I do also like providing

1021
00:49:57,240 --> 00:50:01,120
security for my family.
And I do like, I do like nice

1022
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,680
stuff.
I do like, I like going on

1023
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,520
holiday with my children and I
like my children doing things

1024
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,400
that I didn't do when I was
growing up.

1025
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,520
So, and they're the sort of
answers I really like.

1026
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,200
And at at some point, yeah,
hopefully I've got a long time

1027
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,320
working.
At some point I won't be

1028
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:20,720
working, somebody else will be
running WI FM and I'll look at

1029
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:24,600
it from afar and be really proud
that I was part of that journey.

1030
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,440
And hopefully some people will
think I've done a good job.

1031
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,760
I like that chat from founders,
the the founders who don't

1032
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,440
really have an answer to it.
They're the ones where I go.

1033
00:50:33,720 --> 00:50:35,560
Isn't that weird?
Because you did set this up for

1034
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,320
a reason.
You are going through this pain

1035
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,840
every day for a reason.
So what is it?

1036
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:42,160
What is it?
Yeah.

1037
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,840
Yeah, that would, it's odd that
they wouldn't say it or maybe

1038
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,080
they're afraid that if they
monetize it, it sets an

1039
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,240
expectation then they I, I
don't, I don't.

1040
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,640
And there's also a fascinating,
A fascinating fact that if you

1041
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:55,440
say to somebody what does
success look like?

1042
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,520
And they talk it through and
say, is making money success?

1043
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,400
And they'll always say, yeah,
actually, I do want to make some

1044
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,200
money.
And I promise you, the number is

1045
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:08,600
always either 51020304050,
60708090, a hundred.

1046
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,880
It's always very round ballpark,
round ballpark numbers.

1047
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,280
Yeah, yeah.
That'll do me, yeah.

1048
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,280
OK.
So in terms of the founders that

1049
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,640
you connect with, that you feel
have potential, what is the

1050
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:28,560
trait that many of them share?
They're oh, I was going to say

1051
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:29,600
they're all a bit bonkers.
That's a.

1052
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,960
Terrible thing, yeah, but mad?
Yeah, they you.

1053
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:33,960
Said you want them to be stable.
I do so.

1054
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,240
That, that, that's.
Something we can we can throw in

1055
00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:39,160
at it.
I do what what's the common

1056
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:43,800
trait is there's a burning
desire in them.

1057
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,160
There's something in them that
makes puts them apart from most

1058
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,320
people.
There is a thing that their

1059
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,320
passion, they show a passion.
There's a thing in it when

1060
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:55,840
they're talking about it that
they light up, they're

1061
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,440
absolutely like they're telling
you their story and they're

1062
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:01,720
lighting up about it and they
the the ones who are super

1063
00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:02,760
polished.
That's great, right?

1064
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,040
And a lot of founders of
salespeople, marketers and

1065
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,440
stuff, so they can be super
polished, but they will they

1066
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,320
will over talk.
They'll the amount of times you

1067
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,920
you hear in a first meeting,
God, sorry, I've gone a Segway

1068
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:14,120
there.
Love it.

1069
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,240
I want you to go in a Segway.
I want you to I want you to sort

1070
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:19,880
of drift off and dream and talk
about things.

1071
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:21,520
They say, Oh God, no, sorry.
Let me take you back to the

1072
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,920
point, because what that's
showing me is your, your, your

1073
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,920
mouth or whatever your brain and
your mouth have got so excited.

1074
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:29,680
You've got out of sync of what
you prepared.

1075
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,120
I want to see that sort of
excitement in.

1076
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,920
But at what point does that
become a delusion as well?

1077
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,760
Actually there was a TikTok
going around the other day which

1078
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:44,760
was about most really successful
people are actually quite

1079
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,000
delusional or have been
delusional about the success.

1080
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,080
I mean, I'd it delusional is
quite a negative term, but yeah,

1081
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:56,440
where's the line between that
and then tipping over to that

1082
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,320
it's slightly too much.
I know so well you take it to

1083
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:03,640
it's absolute extremes.
The lady in the US who started

1084
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,520
that blood testing business.
Oh yes, yes, yes, she's got

1085
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:08,160
prison, right.
And, and lots of people lost

1086
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:09,280
lots of money.
It's a terrible story.

1087
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,920
But at what point do you go from
faking it till you make it to

1088
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,080
fraud?
And I don't know the, you know,

1089
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,760
I've read the book and it's,
it's fascinating and it's

1090
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:20,960
presented in a way that presents
her terribly and she's gone to

1091
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:22,720
prison and stuff.
So let's assume she was on the

1092
00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:24,440
bad end of it.
But actually when you're a

1093
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,440
founder, you do have to sit
there and go, I'm going to do

1094
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:29,760
this thing.
I'm going to build this thing.

1095
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:31,640
I haven't got it yet, but I'm
going to build this thing.

1096
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,480
So you do have to have some.
I don't know what the word is.

1097
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:36,480
Chutzpah.
Is that the word?

1098
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,000
I don't know.
Like something about you that

1099
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:42,760
says actually, I'm going to
present this, but there's levels

1100
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,080
of believe, isn't it?
So you think about Elon Musk who

1101
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:50,200
says I'm going to go and conquer
Mars and everyone goes, what an

1102
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:53,320
idiot.
But then now he's got Stalink.

1103
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:55,680
He's got he's right.
He puts more rockets in space

1104
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,560
than anybody else as well.
He's yeah, he's a long way on

1105
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:00,280
that journey.
So he's not.

1106
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:04,320
So I wouldn't meet a founder and
say you're delusional.

1107
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,360
I'd meet a founder and say we're
not you're we're not the right

1108
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:11,800
investor for you wanting to go
and put colonize Mars.

1109
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,560
We're not that journey.
If you were to come to us and

1110
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:19,880
say I think space travel is
going to get space is going to

1111
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:20,960
become more and more
interesting.

1112
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,360
So I'm developing this product
that makes it easier for

1113
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:27,920
satellites to be smaller because
you can put more satellites on a

1114
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:29,600
rocket and more rockets are
going to go up.

1115
00:54:29,720 --> 00:54:32,680
And I've made, I've got 15
customers already and we turn

1116
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:36,200
over £1,000,000 and I think we
can probably get this to being

1117
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,560
200 customers and 300 million of
revenue, but I'm going to need a

1118
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,360
lot of money to do it.
That's where I sort of think

1119
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,560
about actually on the spectrum
of ambition.

1120
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,560
That's what feels like AY?
FM on on the road map.

1121
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,960
Yeah, that's a Y FM ambition
versus the I want to go and

1122
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:57,360
colonize Mars.
That's a USVC vision.

1123
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,320
Yeah, for somebody that's not
me.

1124
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,160
OK.
But how much do you expect them

1125
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:05,160
to know?
Let's say they've got that big

1126
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:07,920
vision.
How much do you expect them to

1127
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:11,400
know how to get there?
Is is that a an expectation or

1128
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:12,840
you're happy to figure it out
with them?

1129
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,200
That's a difficult one because
they must have some idea.

1130
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,560
So most founders are first time
founders.

1131
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:21,000
So the amount of times I meet
people who say, well, I've never

1132
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,240
done this before.
I remember everybody's never

1133
00:55:23,240 --> 00:55:25,320
done anything for the first time
they do it.

1134
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:30,200
So I think we we really like, I
was before I came in this

1135
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,280
morning, I was talking to to
somebody on the portfolio side

1136
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,560
who sits on the the company's
boards and he's talking about

1137
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,600
one of his businesses that are
looking to make an acquisition.

1138
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:40,080
And I was like, yeah.
And one of the comforts for me

1139
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,080
is they're really engaged in
finding people to help them.

1140
00:55:43,240 --> 00:55:46,280
So I love a founder who talks
about mentors and coaches.

1141
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,680
And yeah, I've just changed my
mentor because the last mentor I

1142
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:53,000
had I've outgrown and they're
apologetic for outgrowing them.

1143
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,040
But actually they were great for
this part of my journey.

1144
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:56,160
Now I've got.
To find the one for.

1145
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,360
My next part, I love that.
I love people who go looking for

1146
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,760
the help and believe they don't
know everything.

1147
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,440
They're really festival.
Yes, I love that.

1148
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:06,280
I love that very much for so
many reasons.

1149
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:07,960
Some of them I'm I'm not even
allowed to say.

1150
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,760
But yeah, I love that Michael
Phelps.

1151
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:14,920
I also love athletes.
I adore super athlete mentality

1152
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:19,640
and they do have these visions
of like, I am, I am going to.

1153
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:21,160
It's not I might.
It is.

1154
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,600
I am going to be the best in the
world, Michael Phelps.

1155
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:29,880
I am going to win 8 Olympic gold
medals come on, that's unreal

1156
00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:33,320
don't do that It's a bit
unrealistic or very unrealistic.

1157
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,480
Don't do it.
And he did and it's like, and

1158
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,840
and that those medals come in
very careful planning,

1159
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,520
orchestration, determination and
died all those millions of

1160
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:48,120
little steps.
But actually with an athlete

1161
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:52,120
and, and, and also speaking to
much bigger and Better Business

1162
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:57,240
owners than I am, they they make
it, they simplify the whole mess

1163
00:56:57,240 --> 00:57:00,560
that business can be.
And it is the little steps of

1164
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:02,480
execution.
And it's like, right here's the

1165
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,360
stages, here's the work that has
to be done.

1166
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:07,920
Here's how you do it.
Like here's the people that you

1167
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,160
need.
And then you just go 123 and

1168
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:16,120
it's actually not that bad when
you sort of demystify how you

1169
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:19,320
get this 8 Olympic medal, gold
medals, but actually how many

1170
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,640
hours should you be swimming,
What massages do you need?

1171
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,400
What's your nutrition,
actrolytes, all that stuff, Your

1172
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:28,440
team?
So it's marginal gains, isn't

1173
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:30,480
it?
So we marginal gains that is.

1174
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,240
Now that's a phrase that has
been in whoever the guy who took

1175
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:37,520
over the cycling team, I can't
remember, but he the guy who?

1176
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,040
Yeah, yeah, I know.
He marginal gains and business.

1177
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:44,760
I'm not massively into sports
and stuff, but so I run and I

1178
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,600
like Formula One, but that's
about the beginning end of it.

1179
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:51,960
But I I listen to a lot of stuff
from sports people because I'm

1180
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:54,760
not really that interested in
which football game they won or

1181
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:55,840
didn't win.
That's not my thing.

1182
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:57,360
But I'm interested in how they
got there.

1183
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,960
I love that story.
Natural, natural talent is a

1184
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,840
natural talent is a way to be
controversial here.

1185
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,400
Natural talent is used by people
to justify whether they haven't

1186
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:10,880
done something someone else has
done is my view.

1187
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:14,040
So they will say, well, you're
just naturally gifted at that,

1188
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:17,040
aren't you?
Maybe I was naturally gifted at

1189
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:18,040
it.
But, you know, I've worked

1190
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,600
really hard.
So it's, we think about super

1191
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,720
sports people and the sacrifices
they make to get there.

1192
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,800
They just make sacrifices that
that most people sit there and

1193
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,360
go, I just can't believe, I
can't envisage myself ever doing

1194
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:33,960
that.
So I'm going to tell myself,

1195
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:35,720
yeah, but they've got natural
talent, haven't they?

1196
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:38,160
It's not that, you know, I just,
you know, have a more balanced

1197
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:39,680
life.
I'd sooner watch some Netflix

1198
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,600
and go to the gym.
So we use natural.

1199
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:46,120
I think natural talent is a,
it's sort of very lazy way of

1200
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:49,760
saying I don't want it as much
as as that person wants it.

1201
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,240
Yeah.
And then also if you're speaking

1202
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,440
to someone and then you if if
you're the person that's sort of

1203
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:58,360
putting the idea down or
whatever, like why, why are you

1204
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,840
putting that down?
Of course, don't feed delusions.

1205
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,800
So if someone does have a
tendency to get a bit, you know,

1206
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:05,960
that way, then you can gently
bring them in.

1207
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,240
But I think when someone has
that entrepreneurial spirit,

1208
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,760
it's nice to encourage them to
anyone listening, I think it's

1209
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,880
nice to.
So I have some friends of mine

1210
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:17,640
who, so people will talk about
me as being a toxic optimist.

1211
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,320
So we have a WhatsApp group
between some friends and the,

1212
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:23,480
and the, the WhatsApp group is
called toxic optimism because I,

1213
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:27,840
I sort of do believe you can do
anything if you really want it

1214
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:30,680
enough and you're prepared to
make enough sacrifices.

1215
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,840
There's probably not a lot you
you can't achieve, but what you

1216
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:36,760
do need is smart people around
you professionally and in your

1217
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:41,280
personal life who just rein that
back a bit, test it a bit as So

1218
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,880
my wife Sarah and I've been
together since university.

1219
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:47,000
Sarah's like Mike.
Yeah, we both talked about.

1220
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:49,440
We met the January of our first
year at university.

1221
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:50,920
It's adorable.
It's definitely not.

1222
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:52,680
We talk about the fact that it
ruined our university

1223
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:54,400
experience.
No, it's love.

1224
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:54,960
It's so good.
I.

1225
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:57,400
Love that, but Sarah's that
challenge.

1226
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:59,320
So I'll be like, I'll go home
and I'll be like, right, we're

1227
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,600
going to go and.
Let's go and take the let's go

1228
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,040
and buy that wreck of a house
and do it up because won't that

1229
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,000
be really fun?
And Sarah would say hi, that

1230
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:07,640
would be really fun.
But have you thought about the

1231
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:11,360
fact that we have no time?
So we is that really what we

1232
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:13,440
want to do?
So for me it's you can do

1233
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:15,760
anything as long as you've got
smart people around you just

1234
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,920
pull in that break a bit really
just testing the hypothesis of

1235
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:22,560
can you?
Check in with with more, maybe

1236
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:24,920
even some more stable people
just to make sure that you're.

1237
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,560
Sarah is definitely the stable
person the the two of.

1238
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:29,480
Us, yeah, exactly.
But but careful who you're

1239
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,000
listening to.
So it's a trusted, the trusted

1240
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:35,400
voice versus maybe the maybe the
slightly, you know the ones.

1241
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:36,960
It's really easy to poke other
people, isn't it?

1242
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:41,040
While you're doing that, I, I
lot of people, a lot of people

1243
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,480
don't want other people to be
successful because it makes them

1244
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:48,880
reflect on of their life.
So I, when I meet starters, we

1245
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:50,000
don't need to start up
investing.

1246
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,240
But when I meet ups, when I meet
start up founders, I'm always

1247
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,840
really honest.
And I'll say that here's here's

1248
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:57,880
why I hit that's great.
That's not great.

1249
01:00:57,880 --> 01:00:59,760
I want to be really honest with
you because loads of people will

1250
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:01,920
either just be really positive.
Your mum will tell you it's

1251
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:03,560
brilliant.
All your mates will tell you

1252
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:05,160
it's brilliant because they
don't want to hurt you.

1253
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:08,560
And other people will poke you
because they're a bit jealous

1254
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:10,520
that you're doing a thing that
they're not.

1255
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:12,680
Yeah.
So you've really got to bring in

1256
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:14,480
some some.
Trusted advisors, Mentors.

1257
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:18,240
Yeah, it's key, Yeah.
And even if if you are a

1258
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:20,320
business owner speaking to
people like yourself as well,

1259
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:23,720
getting sort of just can you
maybe take a look at this?

1260
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:28,160
Is this something that can grow
not poke, you know, but but like

1261
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:30,720
properly look into it and then
that will give you information

1262
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,920
is power totally.
So we so we have a full time

1263
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:35,360
person at what I think called
Christina.

1264
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:39,240
Christina's full time role is
managing our network of people.

1265
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:43,480
So when something new comes in,
the the chances of us having

1266
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:45,800
invested in that exact space
before are pretty slim.

1267
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:49,240
So when something new comes in,
we review it, we think about it

1268
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:51,600
and then we hit our network to
understand it.

1269
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,080
So we are then reaching out to
lots of smart people that we

1270
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:57,440
know, people we don't know but
we think look smart and saying,

1271
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:00,040
can we just chat with you about
this opportunity we've got

1272
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,760
because we think it's
interesting and we think you'll

1273
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:06,800
really help us understand it.
Yeah, definitely information

1274
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,040
that is power.
OK, we're going to slightly move

1275
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:11,760
into a different direction just
about money.

1276
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,120
Let's talk about money because
you think about money, I'm sure

1277
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:18,600
very differently.
So how do you think about money?

1278
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:20,320
Do you have a good relationship
with money?

1279
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,360
Do you are you are you careful
about what you spend?

1280
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:27,640
Very or are you a spender or?
So I, so I grew up in a council

1281
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,520
state.
So I, so my, my mum and dad had,

1282
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:33,880
had varied what I would think of
normal working, working lives.

1283
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:35,960
There wasn't a lot of money
knocking around.

1284
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:38,680
There was, yeah, there was
challenges.

1285
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:41,000
I was growing up in the 80s, I
grew up in a steel town so that

1286
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,520
my parents weren't involved in
the steelworks, but the, the

1287
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:45,760
town was decimated when the
steelworks got closed.

1288
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,000
So there was a lot of poverty.
I don't know if it is poverty

1289
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:50,680
versus today, but there was a
lot of poverty.

1290
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:55,120
So I, I've, my parents did a
great job of making sure we had

1291
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:58,120
what we needed and we had some
of what we wanted.

1292
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,240
And there was a, there was a
good balance in, you know, I

1293
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:04,000
look back now and think,
actually, it's right to not

1294
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:07,720
spoil your kids.
But I've lived that way.

1295
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:12,240
And now I'm lucky enough that I
get paid loads more than more

1296
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:15,200
than probably I should and more
than more than we need.

1297
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:18,880
That gives loads of choices.
So I have loads.

1298
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:20,120
We have choices.
Yeah.

1299
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:22,120
Yeah, I like it and I'm not.
And it's funny, isn't it,

1300
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:23,240
Because back to what I was
saying earlier.

1301
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:24,160
So I'm a bit embarrassed saying
that.

1302
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,080
So we do very.
Well, you've, you've really, you

1303
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:29,520
know, you've worked your way to
what you've.

1304
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:32,040
We've, we've taken loads of
risks.

1305
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:34,480
I've taken risks, Sarah's taken
risks.

1306
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,440
We moved.
We, I was born in Corby, Sarah

1307
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:39,520
was born in the Northwest.
We moved down to London.

1308
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:41,760
We knew nobody.
We hated it for God knows how

1309
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:42,920
many years.
We didn't know anybody.

1310
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,840
We couldn't really get into it
and now it's paying off.

1311
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:48,360
So that's great.
In answer your question, the

1312
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:51,640
relationship with money is.
Is it good?

1313
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:54,760
Is money good do?
You have a good relationship

1314
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:58,480
with money.
Probably not.

1315
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:04,280
Why?
Because I because I, because I

1316
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:07,560
believe I can always make more.
So I don't wait, I don't waste.

1317
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,960
I'm so I'm Penny.
So I drives me mad when the kids

1318
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:12,080
leave the lights on in the
house.

1319
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:14,520
I walk around, I'm turning
lights off all the time.

1320
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:16,240
You're watching the pennies.
Yeah.

1321
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,120
Am I?
Yeah, I don't.

1322
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:19,560
Know well you must be if you're.
Switching the lights.

1323
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:23,040
I'm aware of the cost of stuff.
So like when I got coffee before

1324
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:25,000
I came in here and I was like,
oh, is that really how much that

1325
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,640
is?
And then I was and I was hungry

1326
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:30,240
and I had some rice cakes.
Oh, they look good, but they're

1327
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:31,960
2 lbs.
And like in my head I'm actually

1328
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:36,680
questioning do I want them
enough for for 2 lbs, which is

1329
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:39,400
and I got them and then I had
one that was very nice to eat.

1330
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:43,120
But so stuff like that I can get
a bit caught up on.

1331
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:49,120
But then when it comes to
experiences and doing fun things

1332
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:53,400
with the children, with my
family, with, with Sarah, with

1333
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:59,040
friends, I don't, I sort of put,
I would say I don't care, but

1334
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:00,800
I'm quite like, actually, if
it's going to make it 10%

1335
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:04,040
better, let's spend a lot of
money to do it because I'm such.

1336
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:06,280
A money person, you're such a
money person because basically

1337
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:10,440
yes, that you're because the
value, you see it in value

1338
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:12,720
terms.
So the value of the experience

1339
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,400
of the holiday with your family
with a time you will never get

1340
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:20,160
back is valuable enough that you
can justify the the spend, which

1341
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:23,280
is way over what you would
anyone would consider, let's

1342
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:25,920
say.
But it's in the value of that

1343
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,720
for that the trade you're
thinking about the trade.

1344
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:31,920
All the time, absolutely.
So I'll spend a lot of money on

1345
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:35,360
holidays and we stay in in nice
hotels because, well, that's a,

1346
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:37,680
you know, I'm a bit of actually
if we're away, I want to stay

1347
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:39,920
something really nice.
I'm also the guy that walks to

1348
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:45,800
the shop to buy 12 cans of Pepsi
Max because in the shop down the

1349
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:49,440
road, I'd say what I mean I we
were in Dubai earlier this year

1350
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,960
and I'd walk about 20 minutes to
the shop to buy 12 cans of Pepsi

1351
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:55,680
Max because they were a pound
each in the shop and they were

1352
01:05:55,680 --> 01:05:59,240
£9 at swimming pool.
I just couldn't bring myself.

1353
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:01,240
Yeah.
So you also, the relationship

1354
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:05,000
with money is 1, where you're
constantly thinking about value.

1355
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:06,840
And that's why you're doing the
job that you're doing today,

1356
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:10,440
because you're constantly in
value analyzing all the time.

1357
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:11,840
I can see that even though
you're speaking to me, you're

1358
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,800
thinking it's value.
You're always looking at that.

1359
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:20,520
And my and and I don't treat it.
I I'm not I'm getting better but

1360
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:23,400
I can get it wrong with my
friends and family because I.

1361
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:25,080
Because you're too emotional.
You're letting.

1362
01:06:25,120 --> 01:06:27,920
Emotions behaving like that with
because I can be a bit like,

1363
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:29,760
well, I'll get dinner because
it's not.

1364
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:32,680
It's just fine.
It doesn't that the cost of this

1365
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:35,560
dinner isn't material.
And I've really enjoyed spending

1366
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:37,240
time with everybody.
Nobody wants that.

1367
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:38,720
Everybody wants to pay their own
way, don't they?

1368
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:40,800
So I've got that wrong in the
past.

1369
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:43,040
All right, so what's your
experience?

1370
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:45,800
Is the biggest mistake that
ambitious people make?

1371
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:48,720
Can you can you answer that
question, even something you've

1372
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:51,200
seen?
I think people feel like they've

1373
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:53,680
got to present themselves in a
way that's fit.

1374
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:58,360
I think people do, do and say
what they think society wants

1375
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:01,480
from them.
So I work really, really hard.

1376
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:03,800
Really hard.
I think about work all the time.

1377
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:07,520
It impacts our family life.
I have to work quite hard to not

1378
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:09,680
be on my phone all the time.
I get to a Saturday and I'll get

1379
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:10,680
up and go.
Actually, do you know what?

1380
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:12,720
I just do a bit of work doesn't
need doing.

1381
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:14,320
It's just because I'm super
lucky.

1382
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:16,760
I love what I'm doing.
I love what I love the people I

1383
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:21,000
do it with so I can.
It's a real Gray line for me

1384
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:25,240
between home and work because
I'm lucky enough that I love.

1385
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:28,800
I love it.
Yeah, For me, working on a

1386
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:31,840
Saturday, I'm not the working
bit, doesn't bother me.

1387
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,280
Working on a Saturday, not
spending time with my family

1388
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:36,400
bothers me.
I don't go to bed on a Sunday

1389
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:39,760
night worrying about going to
work on a Monday.

1390
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:42,720
Dare I say sometimes I go to bed
on a Sunday night really excited

1391
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:44,360
because I'm going to work on the
Monday.

1392
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:49,200
So I don't think people present
that enough because the current

1393
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:52,680
sort of thing is to be, you
know?

1394
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:56,040
Perfect, Yeah.
Yeah, everyone wants to present

1395
01:07:56,040 --> 01:08:00,720
this.
I I achieve what I achieve by I

1396
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:04,400
do it within set working hours.
I'm there for every school, I'm

1397
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:06,000
there for pickups, I'm there for
drop UPS.

1398
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:07,840
I work from home.
I do this, I do that, I do the

1399
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:09,000
other.
It's just impossible.

1400
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:10,440
Nobody can do that.
We're just going to blow

1401
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:14,000
ourselves up by pretending that
you can't have it all.

1402
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:17,600
You just can't.
And that is, I think my wife

1403
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:21,000
suffers from that more than I do
as, as a male, because nobody

1404
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:23,720
said to me, are you going to go
back to work after Josh is born?

1405
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:26,040
Nobody once ever said that
you're going back to work once

1406
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:28,439
Josh is born.
The first child, our first

1407
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:31,640
point, you know, but Sarah,
people said, Sarah, are you

1408
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:34,560
going back to work?
Like, why didn't they say that

1409
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:36,359
to me?
Just all that stuff.

1410
01:08:36,359 --> 01:08:40,479
And I, I think people can get a
bit caught up in the, I've got

1411
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:42,000
to present myself in a certain
way.

1412
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:44,399
And I, the one thing I can't do
is just say, do you know what?

1413
01:08:44,399 --> 01:08:46,120
I love what I do and I work
really hard.

1414
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:48,200
I work too many hours.
I'm probably too stressed.

1415
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:50,840
I'm overweight.
I don't exercise enough.

1416
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:54,520
We sort of think we've got to do
the I do yoga at 5:00, I have my

1417
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:58,359
green tea, I do meditation, I do
my journals, CBD.

1418
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:00,920
Oils, whatever.
And I just, I don't get it.

1419
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:05,240
I don't get why I I think
successful people should be

1420
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,319
proud that they're successful
because they work, really.

1421
01:09:07,319 --> 01:09:08,680
Hard.
I mean, I've got someone coming

1422
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,399
on later as well and we're going
to talk about anxiety in in

1423
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:14,080
great detail.
But I think what one of the

1424
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:18,319
themes is about this
perfectionist culture and these,

1425
01:09:18,359 --> 01:09:20,640
you know, we, we do demand
things of ourselves and

1426
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:23,600
apparently one in five people
suffer from this kind of, it's a

1427
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:26,840
form of anxiety, which is like
perfectionism and putting these

1428
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:28,720
things on.
Then you always like playing up

1429
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:31,399
to this role and it gets very
stressful because you can't

1430
01:09:31,399 --> 01:09:34,960
maintain that, that level.
You know, I mean, when it comes

1431
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:37,640
to me personally, I, you know,
with The Apprentice and

1432
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:41,160
everything and I walked out for,
you know, my own reasons and

1433
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:43,800
things.
I yeah, I think that there's

1434
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:46,760
some things that are going to
come out.

1435
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,600
You know, you can't, you have to
be yourself.

1436
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:52,920
You can't live a life of being
something you're not.

1437
01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:56,120
You are going to, you know, like
it's just the way it is.

1438
01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:59,400
I think weakness is, is really
telling people.

1439
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:02,240
So our chairman Dave, he's to be
our managing partner.

1440
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,480
He, I, I communicate about all
my weaknesses loads.

1441
01:10:06,480 --> 01:10:08,320
So I did my so my.
That's some.

1442
01:10:08,480 --> 01:10:10,680
Bray but.
But because I'm not, I think

1443
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:12,280
this will be odd for people, but
I'm not perfect.

1444
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:16,520
So my full year review, our year
ends March, we do my full year

1445
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:18,440
review in April.
So I've just been my managing

1446
01:10:18,440 --> 01:10:22,200
partner and I sit down with our
head of investor relations and

1447
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:23,440
CFO.
So the three of us run the

1448
01:10:23,440 --> 01:10:25,360
business together.
One of us has to be the managing

1449
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:26,480
partner.
So that's me, but really the

1450
01:10:26,480 --> 01:10:28,120
three of us are.
Yeah, we do work together.

1451
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:31,720
Yeah, so I said to the guys, why
don't we do our reviews

1452
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:33,960
together?
So rather than me doing yours,

1453
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:37,120
Eamonn as head of our and yours
Marcus, the CFO, why don't we do

1454
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:38,760
it together?
And what I'd really like us to

1455
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:40,280
do is go and get feedback on
everybody.

1456
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:43,880
So they went and got, I got
feedback on Eamonn, Marcus got

1457
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:47,320
feedback on, I can't remember.
But anyway, they got a load of

1458
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:49,440
feedback from me and we said
what we'll do is we'll type it

1459
01:10:49,440 --> 01:10:51,960
into Word documents.
So you don't know who's can't

1460
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:53,360
tie back to it.
Let's just give each other

1461
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:53,960
feedback.
So great.

1462
01:10:54,440 --> 01:10:57,480
So they gave me this three page,
they talked me through this

1463
01:10:57,480 --> 01:11:00,000
three page Word document.
That's quite hard.

1464
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:03,760
And I'm sort of sat there going,
that hurts, but it hurts because

1465
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:05,360
a lot.
Yeah, it did because it was

1466
01:11:05,360 --> 01:11:07,040
true.
And it was people saying, well,

1467
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:09,760
actually Jamie did this, which
made me feel like this.

1468
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:12,680
And oh, God, I don't.
I really, I really want to know

1469
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:14,560
who that is because I want to go
and tell them I'm sorry for how

1470
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:15,880
I made them feel.
And of course you can't.

1471
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:17,960
That's not fair.
So I had it and then I was like,

1472
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:19,440
can I have the document take the
names out?

1473
01:11:19,440 --> 01:11:21,480
So they gave me the document and
then I sent it around the

1474
01:11:21,480 --> 01:11:25,000
business a week later and just
went look, here's here's the

1475
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:28,480
feedback on me.
Here's how that made me feel and

1476
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:30,600
here's why.
Here are the things I'm doing to

1477
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:32,760
course correct.
And here's some stuff in that

1478
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:36,000
that I'm that's just probably me
and I hope it's not me and I'll

1479
01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:38,560
I'll promise I'll try.
But brave, really brave.

1480
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:40,240
But it but isn't that
interesting works.

1481
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:42,320
That's what everyone said, but
how was that brave?

1482
01:11:42,480 --> 01:11:43,440
I'm saying.
It is brave.

1483
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:46,920
A load of people that I really
like and I'm really fond of

1484
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:49,400
everybody at wife M Here's
here's you.

1485
01:11:49,480 --> 01:11:52,760
You know this about me already.
Here's me telling you that I now

1486
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:54,400
know too.
Like, is that brave?

1487
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:57,480
I think it is brave.
You've got to, you've got to

1488
01:11:57,480 --> 01:12:00,120
handle it.
You've got to be able to handle

1489
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:03,040
it.
So hearing criticism of yourself

1490
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:05,440
is difficult.
So you have to handle it.

1491
01:12:05,440 --> 01:12:08,360
And then how do you handle it?
You know, are you going to, are

1492
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:11,240
you the sort of person that's
able to make the change?

1493
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:13,520
Yeah.
You know how flexible are you?

1494
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:15,520
So I had a great, I had a great
mentor.

1495
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:17,680
Don't sorry.
I had a great mentor years and

1496
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:20,400
years ago I called son Palmer.
That's when I worked for the

1497
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:23,920
bank and he he was sort of like
my he was great or two above me,

1498
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:26,000
but in the same business but in
a different team.

1499
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:28,840
And he I got some really bad
feedback one year end.

1500
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:32,120
I was awesome back then and
thought I was awesome.

1501
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:34,200
I thought I was better than I
was back then.

1502
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:35,560
And he was.
Yeah.

1503
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:40,600
And I had a bad year end review
and I I reacted pretty badly

1504
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:43,840
visibly in the office and he
just grabbed me and took me to a

1505
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:45,000
great room.
He said this is going to define

1506
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:47,240
your career, how you react to
how you react.

1507
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:50,080
No one's you you're feeling hurt
and attacked.

1508
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:52,400
They haven't given you that
feedback to hurt and attack you.

1509
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:54,960
They've given you that feedback
because that's real how you

1510
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:57,040
choose to accept.
So you could say there, you

1511
01:12:57,040 --> 01:13:00,840
could say everybody else is
wrong and that's OK because you

1512
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:03,760
you can believe that and that
could be your truth or you can

1513
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:05,760
go away and reflect.
So he's like, I want you to

1514
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:08,240
leave the office, just go for a
walk, come back.

1515
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:10,960
You can't come back for two
hours and then come back in two

1516
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:13,400
hours once you've calmed down
and just walked the entire two

1517
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:14,880
hours.
And of course, by the time I'd

1518
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:17,040
come back and reflected on it, I
was actually, yeah, that

1519
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:19,280
feedback is I agree with all of
it, but.

1520
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:21,080
You can't be quite accurate,
you.

1521
01:13:21,120 --> 01:13:23,200
Can't tell people they don't
feel the way they feel.

1522
01:13:23,440 --> 01:13:26,160
So it yeah, it is real.
It's absolute gold.

1523
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:28,120
I mean, I, I do love it.
I think it's gold.

1524
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:31,160
But yeah, it's how you what you
do with that.

1525
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:32,600
Yeah, you need to be pretty
arrogant, right?

1526
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:35,200
It's back to the founders.
Back to the founders we meet.

1527
01:13:35,480 --> 01:13:39,680
You sort of go for me, people.
I will extrude this confidence,

1528
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:42,480
but for me that confidence is
I'm really happy and comfortable

1529
01:13:42,480 --> 01:13:45,080
in who I am and I know I'm not
perfect.

1530
01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:48,160
So isn't it the most generous
thing in the world when someone

1531
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:51,080
takes the risk to tell the
managing partner, here are the

1532
01:13:51,080 --> 01:13:54,080
things you're not good at?
I'm like, wow, they've done the

1533
01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:56,680
risky thing.
I should be grateful to.

1534
01:13:56,680 --> 01:14:00,240
Receive I I get it and I think
it is it is a it is like a

1535
01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:03,520
little gift because I yeah, I
would love to know.

1536
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:05,840
I do sometimes think, you know,
I do these podcasts and

1537
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:09,360
everything and then I and I have
my business, you know, running

1538
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:11,880
the marketing company.
And then I think, how do I, I

1539
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:14,320
said opposite you.
How do you then take me?

1540
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:17,040
How am I coming across?
I would love to know all of it.

1541
01:14:17,440 --> 01:14:19,720
Let's just talk about, can you
fill out this question about

1542
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:21,720
exactly how I've come across how
No, no, no.

1543
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:24,160
But even if we did, but it's.
Just so interesting.

1544
01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:27,080
Even if we did it, we'd still be
nice because we haven't built

1545
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:29,960
until you can trust somebody
because.

1546
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:31,960
And by trust I don't mean
because I think you're going to

1547
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:33,680
attack me if I say something you
don't like.

1548
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:36,760
I want to trust that if I gave
you that feedback, you'd be OK.

1549
01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:38,560
Dealing with it.
Because nobody wants to.

1550
01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:39,560
Hurt.
I think it's incredibly

1551
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:41,320
important, especially when
you're starting off and

1552
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:43,840
everything and you're learning
or in a new industry or in a new

1553
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:46,320
market or in a new role,
whatever it might be.

1554
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:48,520
And if someone gives you
feedback and you know that

1555
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:51,000
you've done something wrong,
like you'll know, you will know.

1556
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:55,720
I, I do take it really
seriously, you know, like I, I

1557
01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:58,400
take it, I'm going to admit I
will take it personally, but

1558
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:01,720
it's good because if I take it
personally, I will personally

1559
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:06,360
work so hard to change it
because it stings so bad that I,

1560
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:10,000
that I, I like it.
Like, I like modifying myself

1561
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:12,760
from the sting.
That the sort of the the passion

1562
01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:15,360
of the sting of it, the stronger
it is, the more that I know

1563
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:18,040
myself as well that that person
is so completely right.

1564
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:21,800
I've got to change this
particular thing and that's the

1565
01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:23,320
way to improve.
And it's almost like can

1566
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:27,920
everyone just give you that sort
of feedback to would be so much

1567
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:29,280
better when.
We're putting in a would.

1568
01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:32,800
Be so much better.
A tool in the it'd be live in a

1569
01:15:33,160 --> 01:15:35,760
couple of weeks for 360°
feedback by software.

1570
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:39,800
So actually everybody gets to
just fill it in, but the only

1571
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:42,360
person who sees it as the
individual and if they choose to

1572
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:44,720
share that with their line
manager or their mentor, that's

1573
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:45,800
awesome.
There's no need to.

1574
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:49,120
It's just a tool for those who
want and not everybody has to

1575
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:50,520
use it.
If you want to use it because

1576
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:53,960
you'd value the the feedback,
then use it, but it's for you.

1577
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:55,880
Nobody else can see it.
Nobody knows you've used it.

1578
01:15:55,880 --> 01:15:59,320
You asked the people that you
want for the feedback and then

1579
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:01,400
they can provide it to you in a
super cool.

1580
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:03,800
They type stuff in it and it
gets jumbled up so that you

1581
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:05,360
can't work out language and
stuff.

1582
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:07,840
So it is true anonymized
feedback.

1583
01:16:08,160 --> 01:16:12,760
And I'm, if there's 65 people in
my FM today, I probably could

1584
01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:15,840
tell you the 30 that I know will
absolutely get that out on the

1585
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:19,440
first day because they want the,
they've got the hunger for the,

1586
01:16:19,760 --> 01:16:21,400
for the learning and for the
improvement.

1587
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:26,560
Well, again, it comes back to
the way that you view value.

1588
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:28,240
And I'm going to say value, not
money.

1589
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:32,720
It's the way that you view value
and I'm really flattered,

1590
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:35,800
honoured and delighted that
you've seen this as a valuable

1591
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:37,920
session as well, to come here to
give your time.

1592
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:39,360
It's definitely been valuable
for me.

1593
01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:41,560
I know people are going to
definitely find it interesting.

1594
01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:43,320
So yeah.
Thank you for having me.

1595
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:45,440
It's been incredible.
Thanks for coming on.

1596
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:46,320
Thank you.
Thank you.