The Mindset That Turns Trauma Into Power

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Mohammed, thank you so much for coming
on Beyond the Boardroom podcast.

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You are the CEO and founder
of one of the world's largest

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personal health records companies.

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Yes.

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You graduated from Cambridge
for the first class degree.

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You are also a programmer.

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Which is crazy that you've got all of
that and you've written a lot of books.

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Yes.
Just we'll leave it at that for now.

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Yes.

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That's why I am happy to have you on,
I want to hear from you what it took

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to achieve the success that you have.

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And then I also want pick your
brain a bit about the the NHS

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and how we can all improve our
health by taking control of it.

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Yes.

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So there's so much, so many interesting
things we can learn from you.

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So I'll start with my first
and favorite question.

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How are you?

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I'm very good, thank you.

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I've been looking forward
to the conversation.

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I know you had an incident
this morning, didn't you?

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You had an incident?

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Yes.
Yeah.

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So what happened?

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I had a food related shirt accident.

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Just before your podcast, just
minutes, literally 10 minutes ago I

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was sending you selfies, saying Yeah.

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Do you think this will
appear on the camera?

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But camera picks things up though.

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I have no doubt.

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Your shirt's perfect.

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No thank you for the assistance
with the replacement shirt.

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So tell us a little bit
about where you grew up.

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I was born in the Arab world.

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I grew up in Yemen.

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I think the earliest thing that
I'm aware of that happened to me

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is I was bitten by a scorpion as
we were sleeping on the floor.

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No.

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And so we then had to
get a bed after that.

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But my by memory of.

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Yemen is very happy.

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I had a little baby goat that
would follow me around everywhere.

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It was surrounded by people in a school
that my parents were teaching in who

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were friendly and protective and so on.

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So now I have children of
my own and I'm aware of how.

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Terrifying.

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Everything that happens to your child
is I I dunno how we got through that

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difficult environment for my parents.

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Okay.
So just, so where were you born?

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I was born in Bahrain.

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You were born in Bahrain?

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Yeah.
Yes.

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And then shortly after that, I
went, my parents went to Yemen.

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Because my parents had set up
a school by the border of Oman.

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That was teaching the children
of people who were rebelling

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against the government in Oman.

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Oh.
And which was a very isolated area.

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So my mom used to tell me she would
walk for an hour to get to a bus

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that would take an hour to get to a
city that had a Coke bottle that was

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one, one treat a week kind of thing.

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Wow.
It was a very isolated place.

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But the.

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Community that they built and took
part in was a very idealistic one.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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So what was taught in these
schools and what was going on?

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Many of the people around that
area thought that what should be

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done is you teach the children to
region, and then get them back.

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Their families need them for
the war that's happening.

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Yes.

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And my parents I mean my father
particularly would say, look.

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One day there will be peace.

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And with peace you need education.

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So these children can't leave
until they've got their O levels.

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This is old GCSEs.

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Yes.

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And.

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And one day there was peace.

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And as the new Ultan the new took over in
Amman, he needed to rebuild the country.

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And for that you need a bureaucracy.

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And for a bureaucracy, you need
people with university degrees.

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And who can you send
for a university degree?

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The people who had O levels, who
had O levels, the children that

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had been taught in that school.

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Wow.

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So there's a layer, a thin layer of that
bureaucracy from the seventies that were.

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All children in that school who
then became the university graduates

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who helped build the country.

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So it's it's idealistic and long term
and it's time horizon around what

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you should do in investing in people.

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That that's how my parents
brought me up basically.

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Okay.

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But your family was exiled
from Bahrain in the 1970s?

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Yes.
So what happened?

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So because they were teaching the children
the rebels against one royal family.

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The other royal family of
Bahrain didn't like them.

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So they were exiled from Bahrain for that.

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So what happened?

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What?

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Actually, you don't so we went from Yemen
to Syria to Lebanon during the Civil War.

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Gosh, you were traveling around and
trying to find a place to We were

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mostly following my father's education.

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So my father did a degree in
Syria and then a master's in bay.

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Ah, okay.

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And then he ended up doing a. PhD
in the UK in Cambridge, but these

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were difficult countries to live in.

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Yes.

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Yeah, but again, my memory's happy.

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So difficult for your parents, but not
for you when you were that honestly,

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so now I have children of my own.

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Yes.
I have no idea.

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Yeah.

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How my parents managed to do it,
but they did it in a way that

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me and then my brother as he
came, we we felt secure and safe.

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Even in very dangerous environments.

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In Lebanon there were I remember once
there was bombing and then we came

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back the next day from the shelter.

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The building across from us
had been completely flattened.

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Gosh.
And you'd walk to school.

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But some days you can't get back
home 'cause there's another air

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raid and the school, everyone
stays in the school and the parents

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stay in their buildings and so on.

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But my ma my parents managed
to shield me from that.

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Yeah.
But you saw things still.

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You still witnessed things
that you couldn't not witness

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'cause they were there.

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It's a war zone.

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But.

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The worst.

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For, from a child perspective, the
thing that you brought up first

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was a scorpion, I don't blame you.

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That's that's intense.

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Yes.

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So where did it bite you?

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At my foot, apparently.

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Oh, your parents must have been,
again, going outta their mind there.

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So you generally had a nice
childhood and they Yes.

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They managed to shield you from that.

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Looking up, looking at growing up in
a, under these circumstances in Wartorn

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regions and then transitioning to the uk,
what impact do you think that had on you?

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That's not an everyday
occurrence for most people.

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You're going to completely
different environments.

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Yes.

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So how was that?

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So you learn something when
you have to exist in different

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cultures in different countries.

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One is that you learn that most people's
habits are random and arbitrary.

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I. I come to England, for
example, first day in the canteen.

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In the school.

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They have gravy.

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So what age are you now?

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10. You're 10?

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1986. Okay.

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So you come to the uk,
you're 10 years old, correct?

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Yeah.

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You haven't seen anything
like this Really?

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I've never seen gravy before in my life.

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So you're looking at this and
thinking so they put gravy.

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It's a liquid.

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I pick up the spoon.

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I. Drink it.

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Oh.

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And the kids are laughing at me
which is fine, but the thing I didn't

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understand is I said how do you do it?

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And they showed me and they used
a fork and the liquid was falling.

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So I'm just, it makes no sense to me.

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No, nothing.

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And every country has these things but
then on the flip side, every country has.

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Some excellent things, and if
you can pick them up if you can

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accumulate them, that's very useful.

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My teacher in the school, I spoke
very little English and I, I asked

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her, how do you spell this word?

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Yes.
And she says.

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Here's the dictionary and, okay.

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A dictionary is what you use
when you know the spelling of

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the word, but not the meaning.

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I know the meaning.

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I dunno the spelling.

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Yes.
Why are you giving me a dictionary?

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Yeah.

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And in fact Arab schools, the teacher
would've immediately told you Yes.

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And for a teacher to not tell you,
you think the teacher is lazy.

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Okay.

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However, what the English system is
all about is teaching you independence.

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So what the teacher I eventually
understood was, how many

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ways could it be spelt 10?

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15. It doesn't take that long
to go through all of them.

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And eventually you'll find the right
spelling by trying them on dictionary

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and now you know how to check the
spelling without waiting for se

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for another person to teach you.

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So she taught me how to teach myself.

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I think you took the
positive out of that lesson.

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'cause I think she was
slightly rude, to be honest.

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I must tell you I'm positive now.

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I was very bitter during
the first few years.

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Yeah.

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I don't like, yeah, I don't like, but
the English system is very much about.

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Independence and sometimes it
comes across as sink or swim.

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But that is if you look at Arab countries
or Asian educational systems in general,

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they're very much about rote learning.

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Yeah.

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They're gonna give you the answer
and you're gonna learn the answer.

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Whereas English systems are about
getting you to think through the answer.

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Yes.

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Very interesting.

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The.

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Something I noticed is that my
parents who came from a Polish Yes.

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Background polish education
in Poland, kids, in those days

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didn't really get anything.

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There was no concept of
homework or anything like that.

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You really, yeah.

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You got taught at school.

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And then you went home and relaxed.

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Yes.

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But the academics were dealt with
by the teachers hands on in school.

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And and today, the education
system, it's absolutely brilliant.

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It's top it's really good.

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Yes.

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A hundred percent literacy in the
country, very academically minded.

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Yeah.
Country.

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But in South Africa we had more
of the English system where

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the kids were expected to, like
you're saying, sink or swim.

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Yes.
And if you had.

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Parents, you needed that support
the parents to especially if

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you're very m young or maybe a
bit, one of those kids that doesn't

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really wanna sit down and study.

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You did need a parent to watch you and
the kids that had, that, would do better.

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And then the kids whose parents were like
a bit hands off because they expect the

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schools were a bit left and started having
gaps in things, which is, what happened

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in our, and it builds up in our, yeah,
because, it's not like that, and I see

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that even now with my kids having gone
through the English education system.

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Yes.

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How much they needed me to just make sure
that, the academics are tick tick, tick.

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And I think it is a bit single swim.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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But then again, we've got the
best universities in the world

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you've been to one of them.

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And those are brilliant and
the minds are stretched.

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But I think at that stage, you're
not dealing with that anymore.

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You're just dealing with.

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Yeah, the best of the best.

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That kind of so again, it's about
each of those systems, Arab Polish

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has advantages and disadvantages.

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And as you live in different countries,
the, do you learn to identify them

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and evaluate them objectively?

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Not because you grew up there and
therefore it must be the correct way.

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But because as an outsider,
you are checking everything.

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And then are you open to
picking up the good things Yes.

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Rather than rejecting
them from being different?

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Yes.

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So if you can get rid of the
weight of local habits and pick up.

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Accumulate the good local habits.

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It's very powerful.

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I love that you say to be open to it.

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Yes.

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Because I know, I would say that
travel, I consider travel and going

0:10:25.890,0:10:28.260
out there in the world and going
to all as many countries as you can

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and sub, literally living the life.

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Go and work in a country.

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Don't just go on holiday.

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Literally work there.

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Yes, live there.

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Doesn't matter like remote and.

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You suddenly start seeing
things from a different angle.

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It's not all UK centric or polish.

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It's let's look at it
from this point of view.

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Look at football teams that these guys
look how they dress, look how they speak.

0:10:47.035,0:10:50.225
And it becomes less scary as
well, that people are different.

0:10:50.225,0:10:52.585
They look different to you,
but it's or people Yeah.

0:10:52.615,0:10:54.055
Laughing at the same silly things.

0:10:54.105,0:10:56.395
Getting really hungry, wanting,
you all have to work, you're on

0:10:56.395,0:10:58.705
depression and you suddenly the
world, it just becomes easier.

0:10:58.705,0:11:01.615
But then you've got people that
maybe they haven't traveled.

0:11:01.615,0:11:06.325
I had someone in the family who
hadn't traveled but he was so open

0:11:06.355,0:11:10.435
and researching and reading on
different cultures and really like

0:11:10.765,0:11:14.215
intellectually wanting to understand
and even learning other languages,

0:11:14.215,0:11:15.355
as many as you could, and just.

0:11:16.105,0:11:17.785
Yeah, it's the openness that matters.

0:11:18.025,0:11:19.015
The openness, right?

0:11:19.045,0:11:19.440
Yes.
Yeah.

0:11:19.440,0:11:20.670
You can do it in different ways.

0:11:20.730,0:11:21.230
Yes.

0:11:21.540,0:11:23.970
But yeah, if you're not open,
then the world becomes scary

0:11:23.970,0:11:25.080
and then you become defensive.

0:11:25.240,0:11:26.195
Yes.
It's true, isn't it?

0:11:26.255,0:11:26.635
Yes.

0:11:26.635,0:11:27.175
So true.

0:11:28.945,0:11:32.875
Values, like family values and how you
brought up, you obviously different

0:11:32.875,0:11:37.325
influences and that's fine, but like
what your parents tell you at home

0:11:37.325,0:11:41.165
that really matters and what sorts of,
what were the main values that your

0:11:41.165,0:11:50.645
parents, I think the main things were
and with the background that at various

0:11:50.645,0:11:52.925
points in my life, there was sudden.

0:11:53.975,0:11:54.475
Movement.

0:11:54.515,0:11:55.475
So change.

0:11:55.565,0:11:55.695
Yeah.

0:11:55.695,0:11:58.365
The move from Syria to Lebanon
was very sudden from Lebanon to

0:11:58.365,0:11:59.700
Cambridge was very sudden, okay.

0:11:59.705,0:12:00.465
From Cambridge.

0:12:00.465,0:12:01.875
YPs was very sudden, so on.

0:12:02.595,0:12:07.345
And therefore but it's okay if
you are close with your family

0:12:08.095,0:12:09.995
and you have an education.

0:12:10.745,0:12:13.235
If you have those two things in place,
it doesn't matter where you are.

0:12:13.590,0:12:14.460
It's gonna be okay.

0:12:14.910,0:12:16.650
It may not be fabulous,
but it's gonna be okay.

0:12:16.650,0:12:17.880
What about your friends?

0:12:18.200,0:12:20.360
That's very frequent changes in friends.

0:12:20.420,0:12:20.590
Yeah.

0:12:20.590,0:12:23.470
And unlike my brother, for example,
I'm not very good at making friends.

0:12:23.470,0:12:25.240
So he was excellent at picking up friends.

0:12:25.240,0:12:28.120
It takes me three years to make friends.

0:12:28.120,0:12:32.035
Three years, and it takes me, my
parents, three years to change country.

0:12:32.035,0:12:33.185
So it was difficult for me.

0:12:33.695,0:12:34.175
Wow.

0:12:34.175,0:12:37.595
But, but the family was a
constant and was very close.

0:12:38.315,0:12:43.205
And wherever we turned up if
I could pay attention to my

0:12:43.205,0:12:45.235
education things worked out in me.

0:12:45.235,0:12:48.505
So you were very studious and it was
something that was important to you?

0:12:48.635,0:12:49.655
I liked learning.

0:12:49.725,0:12:50.995
I was I was probably.

0:12:51.640,0:12:53.890
A bad student for most of my life.

0:12:54.010,0:12:55.690
And yeah, I'd fail exams and so on.

0:12:55.900,0:12:56.620
Really?
Yes.

0:12:56.620,0:13:03.980
But the mostly because I would like
learning the topic, not the test.

0:13:04.670,0:13:06.740
And as the teacher would focus
on, you have to learn these three

0:13:06.740,0:13:09.890
things, I would be distracted by
a whole bunch of other things.

0:13:09.890,0:13:13.290
But you learn the habits of studying
for the exam along, but the.

0:13:13.890,0:13:14.940
Enjoyment of learning.

0:13:14.990,0:13:15.590
That was constant.

0:13:15.590,0:13:18.215
I was always reading, I was always,
it is something I pick up from you.

0:13:18.220,0:13:20.810
You ask a lot of questions
more than most people.

0:13:20.810,0:13:23.240
It's the first thing I notice
about you, like firing questions.

0:13:23.240,0:13:24.260
Me.
I'm like, hang on a minute.

0:13:24.830,0:13:25.330
Hang on a minute.

0:13:25.370,0:13:26.900
I'm interviewing you.

0:13:26.900,0:13:28.100
No.
I find no, but it's nice.

0:13:28.100,0:13:29.030
But you're inquisitive.

0:13:29.060,0:13:31.190
I find everybody has a story.

0:13:31.520,0:13:32.690
And it's really interesting.

0:13:32.810,0:13:33.590
I'll tell you a story.

0:13:33.620,0:13:34.000
Okay.

0:13:34.000,0:13:35.030
Buzz Neil Armstrong.

0:13:35.030,0:13:35.960
Sorry.
The astronaut.

0:13:36.060,0:13:42.600
Before two years before he died, he
gave a lecture for the Australian

0:13:42.660,0:13:44.220
Association of Accountants.

0:13:44.220,0:13:48.780
He gave the keynote lecture and everyone
was asking the guy, how did you get

0:13:48.810,0:13:50.490
Neil Armstrong to come to Australia?

0:13:51.540,0:13:53.850
Apart from coming to Australia,
Neil Armstrong is very modest.

0:13:53.850,0:13:54.930
He doesn't give lectures.

0:13:54.960,0:13:57.480
So he gave a little bit
of speaking tour after.

0:13:57.885,0:14:02.025
The moon as a duty to nasa and,
but he's a very private man.

0:14:02.175,0:14:06.235
And he said I found out that Neil
Armstrong's father was an accountant.

0:14:07.195,0:14:10.945
And I said to him, will you help inspire
the next generation of accountants?

0:14:11.725,0:14:13.050
Aw.
And of course you flew, right?

0:14:13.110,0:14:13.610
Aw.

0:14:13.650,0:14:15.180
So everybody has a story.

0:14:15.360,0:14:15.420
Yeah.

0:14:15.420,0:14:18.880
And if you understand that you
can cooperate with people but I

0:14:18.880,0:14:20.350
enjoy telling people's stories.

0:14:20.770,0:14:21.880
That's a lovely story.

0:14:21.980,0:14:25.010
As I said, it wasn't easy for
you, and you've been telling us

0:14:25.010,0:14:28.220
about, obviously, all the war
torn countries and the movement.

0:14:28.220,0:14:30.835
And as a kid and the difficulty,
obviously it affected.

0:14:31.355,0:14:32.825
Making these friends,
you always have to leave.

0:14:32.825,0:14:33.725
You always have to leave them.

0:14:33.725,0:14:35.615
So why put, you know
the effort and then da.

0:14:35.645,0:14:39.875
And then you also had
a rare immune disorder.

0:14:39.925,0:14:40.915
Can you tell us about that?

0:14:41.885,0:14:43.534
My immune system is weak.

0:14:43.564,0:14:47.174
I don't, make antibodies
in response to what tool?

0:14:47.814,0:14:51.534
I make the normal antibodies that everyone
has, but normally the immune system,

0:14:51.534,0:14:55.494
when it finds something dangerous like
an infection or a cancer, it then makes

0:14:55.494,0:14:57.774
an antibody specific extra to that thing.

0:14:57.864,0:14:58.364
Yeah.

0:14:58.854,0:15:00.384
I can't make that specific.

0:15:00.384,0:15:01.164
You can't make extra ones?

0:15:01.344,0:15:01.764
Correct.

0:15:01.764,0:15:04.774
So in Yemen the vaccines wouldn't work.

0:15:05.404,0:15:05.434
Okay.

0:15:05.434,0:15:08.194
And sometimes the vaccine would give me
the infection that was in the vaccine.

0:15:08.249,0:15:11.169
Oh, so if it was a live vaccine, for
example, if it was a live vaccine, yeah.

0:15:11.469,0:15:14.139
Growing up in, in a very poor area.

0:15:14.439,0:15:18.519
Again I dunno how my mother kept me
alive, but yeah, she noticed it early on

0:15:18.519,0:15:23.739
and she began boiling water before she
gives it to me to drink, to sterilize it.

0:15:24.189,0:15:28.289
And she smoked everyone around her said,
the Yemenis, there are tough people.

0:15:28.799,0:15:30.239
So they said you're spoiling him.

0:15:30.294,0:15:31.874
Yeah.
And you are making him weak and so on.

0:15:31.874,0:15:33.224
But she said there's something,
give him the germs, they're good

0:15:33.224,0:15:37.794
for him, but she said, no, there's
something different about my son.

0:15:38.044,0:15:39.214
And he needs protection.

0:15:39.814,0:15:47.114
And so that, that's why, by the time I
got to Cambridge to the UK in age 10, many

0:15:47.264,0:15:50.954
other children would've been in much worse
condition, even if they'd been in better

0:15:50.954,0:15:52.874
countries than, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon.

0:15:52.874,0:15:54.851
But she managed to maintain
my health because she changed.

0:15:54.954,0:15:56.530
Yeah, she was very educated.

0:15:56.530,0:16:02.410
She kept a very good eye on me and
looked after me until I was 12.

0:16:03.410,0:16:06.130
And in those two years, I remember
my mother constantly arguing

0:16:06.130,0:16:10.540
with doctors saying, what you are
saying does not match what he has.

0:16:10.970,0:16:12.410
I've seen her intuition.

0:16:13.190,0:16:15.020
No, she brought data to the conversation.

0:16:15.020,0:16:16.010
She brought the receipts, right?

0:16:16.010,0:16:18.860
So what you are saying doesn't
match what happened this

0:16:18.860,0:16:20.720
day, that day, the other day.

0:16:21.050,0:16:24.315
So your diagnosis is wrong, and I'm okay.

0:16:24.800,0:16:27.750
Dying of embarrassment because
you think your mom's been too?

0:16:27.795,0:16:28.875
Why are you embarrassed?

0:16:29.395,0:16:33.195
Just, my my mother has a very strong
personality and she's telling off the

0:16:33.195,0:16:37.125
doctor for being wrong and I'm new in
the country and I'm just trying to keep

0:16:37.125,0:16:38.535
the low profile as a teenager, right?

0:16:38.595,0:16:39.285
Yes.

0:16:39.525,0:16:40.215
Just shush mom.

0:16:40.275,0:16:40.655
Yeah.

0:16:40.655,0:16:41.705
P but she was right.

0:16:41.945,0:16:42.905
But she had the facts.

0:16:42.965,0:16:44.675
She had the facts and she'd done the work.

0:16:44.735,0:16:49.425
And eventually we got to see
a super specialist in Great

0:16:49.425,0:16:50.745
Ormond Street Hospital, London.

0:16:51.225,0:16:56.115
And apparently the year that he saw me,
it was only one year after the illness

0:16:56.115,0:16:58.615
had been diagnosed in the first place.

0:16:58.615,0:17:01.165
The Swedish registry had
identified it because it's so rare.

0:17:02.005,0:17:05.845
And so a year afterwards, a
specialist in London sees me and says.

0:17:06.520,0:17:10.600
Mohamed has this and we think
it can be fixed by giving him

0:17:10.870,0:17:12.700
antibodies from blood donations.

0:17:13.300,0:17:15.550
And that changes my
trajectory in my health.

0:17:15.555,0:17:16.455
That's crazy.

0:17:16.635,0:17:17.475
That is crazy.

0:17:18.195,0:17:19.185
So when you.

0:17:20.100,0:17:23.130
Had a live vaccine that
you shouldn't have had.

0:17:23.130,0:17:26.160
Was that one of the points in
her data points saying we gave

0:17:26.160,0:17:27.190
him, I don't know what, correct.

0:17:27.190,0:17:28.570
You had TB or something like that.

0:17:28.570,0:17:32.205
Did you then, like what I forget the one
that she had but she didn't, she had all

0:17:32.205,0:17:34.935
the, she had all those, yeah, because
you would've had a lot of, you had to go

0:17:34.935,0:17:36.225
through the whole program, didn't you?

0:17:36.495,0:17:36.855
Yeah.

0:17:36.855,0:17:37.985
Measles and all sort.

0:17:38.045,0:17:38.645
Yeah.
I dunno.

0:17:38.645,0:17:39.665
Is measles a live vaccine?

0:17:39.935,0:17:43.925
I don't, again, in those days,
I dunno what it was, but Yeah.

0:17:43.925,0:17:43.959
I dunno what it was.

0:17:43.959,0:17:46.055
But you must have, and again,
remember she's collecting them across.

0:17:46.730,0:17:48.770
These different ages, they're diff
different healthcare systems, right?

0:17:48.820,0:17:51.010
And sometimes that's even more difficult.

0:17:51.010,0:17:52.330
Yeah.
Because that's even more difficult.

0:17:52.540,0:17:53.890
But she kept all that information.

0:17:53.920,0:17:53.980
Yeah.

0:17:53.980,0:17:56.650
And she brought that and she's
constantly reading and she

0:17:56.650,0:17:58.660
brings that to the conversations.

0:17:58.690,0:17:59.320
You actually need to Yeah.

0:17:59.320,0:18:01.960
Be careful when you hopping
countries because one program

0:18:01.960,0:18:03.160
is totally different to another.

0:18:03.160,0:18:03.660
Yeah.

0:18:04.220,0:18:08.840
I actually missed out on a measles
vaccination, and then I had to

0:18:08.840,0:18:09.980
have one later in adulthood.

0:18:09.980,0:18:13.130
And the only reason why they found out
that I had missed out on it is because.

0:18:13.655,0:18:18.215
I took my daughter to a and e for
some, she was, and then they, there

0:18:18.215,0:18:19.504
was someone with measles there, right?

0:18:19.610,0:18:21.739
So they said, oh, sorry,
you were you vaccinated?

0:18:21.739,0:18:22.189
I found my mom.

0:18:22.189,0:18:23.330
She goes, mom, was I vaccinated?

0:18:23.330,0:18:23.905
She goes, I dunno.

0:18:24.499,0:18:26.300
I was like, great, thanks.

0:18:26.840,0:18:28.304
And then they did a test and then, yeah.

0:18:28.304,0:18:28.804
Yes.

0:18:28.969,0:18:30.530
Yeah.
Now I'm glad they checked, but yes.

0:18:30.644,0:18:32.989
So yeah, that was actually,
that was a good moment.

0:18:33.019,0:18:33.800
'cause that could have been.

0:18:34.830,0:18:38.939
And a lot of people find that at
scale during lockdown with COVID,

0:18:39.209,0:18:42.120
they'd get one dose in one country
and another one in the other country.

0:18:42.810,0:18:44.820
The system fails across the borders.

0:18:45.030,0:18:45.600
Yes.

0:18:45.840,0:18:47.909
And they stuck in the admin
as well as the safety of it.

0:18:48.449,0:18:49.230
So it's very difficult.

0:18:49.230,0:18:50.640
It's a horrible place to be stuck.

0:18:50.640,0:18:50.970
Yeah.

0:18:50.970,0:18:52.350
Yeah.
Oh, that's really scary.

0:18:54.060,0:18:58.050
You love your academics, that's your
grounding, one of your grounding values.

0:18:58.050,0:18:59.850
Yes.
Besides, obviously family first.

0:18:59.950,0:19:02.500
And you study computing.

0:19:02.530,0:19:04.420
And you study medicine.

0:19:04.660,0:19:04.815
Yes.

0:19:04.815,0:19:07.365
It's two different, they share some
parts of brain, but it's like it is

0:19:07.365,0:19:08.595
two different parts of your brain.

0:19:08.955,0:19:09.045
Yes.

0:19:09.045,0:19:11.570
Like your brain must be very well
exercised with the blood flow.

0:19:11.685,0:19:15.210
Very healthy in the D
regions because it's like.

0:19:16.155,0:19:17.115
Sorry, go ahead with your question.

0:19:17.115,0:19:18.405
No, I say it's just different.

0:19:18.405,0:19:21.045
You don't get someone really
that's done those two.

0:19:21.095,0:19:25.205
When I, it's not a common thing, did
my A levels, I read a book called

0:19:25.255,0:19:29.275
chaos which is not about the NHS,
it's about a new science of chaos.

0:19:29.275,0:19:29.905
Science.

0:19:29.910,0:19:31.470
Chaotic systems and
things like the weather.

0:19:31.930,0:19:33.630
Plates unpredictable
volatile, unpredictable.

0:19:33.660,0:19:34.160
Okay.

0:19:34.170,0:19:38.010
And they're unpredictable because
normally a small error in measurement

0:19:38.340,0:19:41.340
means a predictable measure in your
prediction error in your prediction.

0:19:41.610,0:19:44.600
But non-linear systems, chaotic
systems no matter how small the

0:19:44.600,0:19:45.740
error in your measurement Yes.

0:19:45.740,0:19:47.240
And there will always be
error of your measurement.

0:19:47.270,0:19:47.770
Yes.

0:19:47.810,0:19:50.270
Can still lead to a very large
error in your prediction.

0:19:50.810,0:19:53.150
So they're very difficult
systems to predict and model.

0:19:53.150,0:19:53.650
Yes.

0:19:53.750,0:19:55.430
But they're the most important systems.

0:19:55.700,0:19:55.820
Yes.

0:19:55.820,0:20:01.020
And so the book talked about to model
the weather meteorologists learn how

0:20:01.020,0:20:05.460
to program to modern model earthquakes,
the geologist learn how to program.

0:20:05.700,0:20:07.350
So they were combining
disciplines, like you were saying?

0:20:07.380,0:20:07.880
Yes.

0:20:08.310,0:20:12.590
And then it has a whole chapter on
the body is full of chaotic systems.

0:20:12.875,0:20:14.225
The immune system, the heart, and so on.

0:20:14.225,0:20:15.845
Interconnected, chaotic systems.

0:20:15.845,0:20:16.175
Yeah.

0:20:16.175,0:20:17.825
But there was no doctor
who learned how to program.

0:20:17.975,0:20:18.475
Yeah.

0:20:18.485,0:20:22.955
So I said, I'll do that and
I'll learn how to program and do

0:20:22.955,0:20:27.485
medicine so I can write software to
model the body's chaotic systems.

0:20:28.145,0:20:28.595
Yeah.

0:20:28.595,0:20:29.795
So I thought that was a cool idea.

0:20:29.795,0:20:31.655
I'll try that and.

0:20:32.235,0:20:35.475
I applied to the medical schools and they
said, why do you want to be a doctor?

0:20:35.475,0:20:36.525
I don't want to be a doctor.

0:20:36.525,0:20:37.425
I want to write this software.

0:20:37.935,0:20:40.275
So four of them turned me down on
the spot saying, you are wasting

0:20:40.275,0:20:41.205
our time while you're here.

0:20:41.985,0:20:45.095
And but luckily one of them,
Cambridge said yes, and they allowed

0:20:45.095,0:20:47.555
me to combine the two disciplines.

0:20:48.335,0:20:49.655
Yeah, it's fascinating.

0:20:49.715,0:20:54.035
It's fascinating because you Yeah we're
going into this direction so let's

0:20:54.035,0:20:55.445
let's park this one for a little bit.

0:20:55.445,0:20:55.565
Sure.

0:20:55.565,0:20:59.285
So do you consider yourself
an ambitious person?

0:20:59.695,0:21:01.255
It's a yes or no answer first.

0:21:02.425,0:21:02.875
No.

0:21:02.875,0:21:04.645
If you mean competitive, ambitious.

0:21:04.645,0:21:05.095
No.

0:21:05.095,0:21:05.725
Ambitious.

0:21:05.755,0:21:06.295
Yes.
Yes.

0:21:06.295,0:21:06.835
Go ahead, sir.

0:21:06.925,0:21:07.705
Yes, you do.

0:21:07.755,0:21:08.255
Why?

0:21:08.845,0:21:13.705
I like doing things that
seem difficult or impossible.

0:21:14.105,0:21:15.005
That's the ambition I have.

0:21:15.165,0:21:18.135
It's not the ambitious to
beat someone or to win.

0:21:18.135,0:21:18.225
Yes.

0:21:18.225,0:21:21.005
It's but thinking, everyone
thinks this can't be done,

0:21:22.115,0:21:23.375
let's figure out how to do it.

0:21:23.695,0:21:24.625
That's the ambition I have.

0:21:25.405,0:21:27.895
It's okay to say you're
ambitious on this podcast.

0:21:28.015,0:21:28.705
It's okay.

0:21:28.705,0:21:31.845
No.
Because you have to have ambition Yes.

0:21:32.835,0:21:36.345
To want to combine
computing and medicine Yes.

0:21:36.345,0:21:38.085
In the way that you did,
especially when you did.

0:21:38.325,0:21:38.765
Yes.

0:21:38.765,0:21:42.305
And still now when we need it, more
than ever you have to have ambition.

0:21:42.395,0:21:42.875
Yes.

0:21:42.875,0:21:44.075
So are you ambitious?

0:21:44.135,0:21:44.705
Yes, I am.

0:21:45.245,0:21:46.085
Yes, I am.

0:21:46.135,0:21:46.635
Yes I am.

0:21:46.855,0:21:48.475
It's quite therapeutic this conversation.

0:21:48.565,0:21:49.585
It's not meant to be therapeutic.

0:21:51.145,0:21:51.535
Keep going.

0:21:51.535,0:21:52.035
Sorry.

0:21:52.235,0:21:54.065
What did your early career look like then?

0:21:56.270,0:21:59.870
I think my big break 'cause I was trying
to combine the computer and the medicine.

0:21:59.900,0:22:03.200
I was getting summer jobs during
medical school to write software.

0:22:04.400,0:22:09.960
Which was really interesting because the,
for the professors to get the software,

0:22:10.560,0:22:12.870
they had to teach me their specialty.

0:22:13.260,0:22:16.920
But my big break came when I worked
for this one professor and I kept

0:22:16.920,0:22:18.210
on saying to him, gimme more work.

0:22:18.660,0:22:19.500
He said, you've got a whole day.

0:22:19.530,0:22:21.300
I said, I still wanna
do work in my whole day.

0:22:22.260,0:22:24.690
And I irritated him one day.

0:22:24.900,0:22:28.110
And so he said, fine, come with
me to this meeting tomorrow.

0:22:29.010,0:22:33.420
So I come to a meeting where there's a
room full of radiology professors, and

0:22:33.420,0:22:36.420
for an hour they're telling me about
what they want done for the DICOM file.

0:22:36.470,0:22:36.895
What is that?

0:22:36.895,0:22:39.350
And I'm 20 and I'm too embarrassed
to say, what is that file?

0:22:39.350,0:22:40.040
What is a dicom?

0:22:40.040,0:22:41.660
Yeah, what does that word mean?

0:22:41.750,0:22:45.590
Yeah, it's the file format for radiology
pictures, like x-rays and CT scans format.

0:22:45.645,0:22:46.145
Okay.

0:22:46.245,0:22:46.745
Okay.

0:22:47.585,0:22:48.275
And now we're into it.

0:22:48.275,0:22:48.935
I still don't know.

0:22:49.145,0:22:49.205
Yeah.

0:22:49.205,0:22:53.615
And at the end they say, they hand me a
stack this stick and say, these are the

0:22:53.615,0:22:55.685
specifications for the DICOM file format.

0:22:55.805,0:23:00.695
And your boss says that you're
gonna write the software for us.

0:23:00.695,0:23:03.305
So software to do what with it though?

0:23:03.335,0:23:06.335
So what they wanted was to take their.

0:23:06.935,0:23:09.000
X-ray or the CT scan the file.

0:23:10.050,0:23:14.370
And then have software that lets
them, annotate it, highlight it.

0:23:14.955,0:23:15.605
Just explain.

0:23:15.665,0:23:16.165
Oh, okay.

0:23:16.515,0:23:18.960
Just to make edits to, to, to the file.

0:23:18.990,0:23:19.410
Okay.

0:23:19.410,0:23:19.910
Yeah.

0:23:20.700,0:23:24.740
I know this now anyway, so I'm in a
panic because next day I have to go on

0:23:24.740,0:23:28.570
my whole day, I've got this stack of
fold, this stack of instructions and

0:23:28.570,0:23:30.640
I still dunno what a DICOM file is.

0:23:31.420,0:23:36.540
Luckily that year there was a new website
called Google, and so I figured out

0:23:36.540,0:23:41.490
what DICOM file is and then I found one
bit of software that would read a DICOM

0:23:41.490,0:23:44.970
file into a picture and another one
that would take a picture and let you

0:23:44.970,0:23:46.380
annotate it and do all the things already.

0:23:46.430,0:23:49.010
And I joined up the bits of
software, so I do it in two days.

0:23:49.010,0:23:52.040
You programmed conversation between, I
programmed the connection between the two.

0:23:52.055,0:23:55.560
And I want to be clear with you what
I was clear with my boss, which is.

0:23:56.340,0:23:58.950
All the work was done by these two
guys who'd written the software.

0:23:58.950,0:24:00.570
So I just found them and stitched them.

0:24:00.570,0:24:01.140
Communicate.

0:24:01.260,0:24:01.760
Yeah.

0:24:01.830,0:24:08.550
But my but my, from that point onwards,
he just kept on giving me difficult stuff.

0:24:08.580,0:24:09.000
Nice.

0:24:09.000,0:24:10.320
And I kept on enjoying it.

0:24:10.500,0:24:12.000
What programming language were you using?

0:24:12.000,0:24:12.630
What was your favorite?

0:24:12.650,0:24:13.335
This was Java.
Back then.

0:24:13.335,0:24:14.385
You were your Java.

0:24:14.385,0:24:14.775
Okay.

0:24:14.775,0:24:15.345
Java developer.

0:24:16.245,0:24:16.755
Okay.

0:24:16.785,0:24:20.885
So you allowed these systems to
talk to each other, these apps Yes.

0:24:20.885,0:24:22.745
Or whatever you wanna call
them to, to talk to each other.

0:24:22.745,0:24:24.005
You found a way to link that.

0:24:24.575,0:24:26.345
So that was a, like a little breakthrough.

0:24:26.495,0:24:30.785
And then at what point did
that turn into a business?

0:24:32.445,0:24:36.075
So I'd always done little
programming jobs or writings.

0:24:36.175,0:24:39.775
Just anything that would, I done, a few
hundred pounds a year, nothing much, but,

0:24:39.835,0:24:41.755
and most of the stuff I did was for free.

0:24:41.905,0:24:47.485
But what I liked about doing these things
is I would get freedom to do new things.

0:24:47.540,0:24:48.605
And that's what I enjoyed.

0:24:49.275,0:24:52.515
And in contrast, as I was going through
academia and medicine, it was very

0:24:52.515,0:24:56.535
clear that although there would be
very clear career path and monetary

0:24:56.535,0:24:57.765
path, there wasn't the freedom.

0:24:58.605,0:25:01.935
So around about university, I realized
I was gonna start my own company.

0:25:02.745,0:25:03.075
Okay.

0:25:03.075,0:25:04.515
And I didn't know.

0:25:05.580,0:25:07.320
What it was going to be about.

0:25:07.680,0:25:10.050
I just knew it would be very
difficult to start your own company.

0:25:10.290,0:25:10.790
Yeah.

0:25:10.980,0:25:14.160
Therefore, the only way you could
persist through the difficulties is if

0:25:14.160,0:25:17.010
you found the problem so interesting.

0:25:17.010,0:25:20.100
You would keep going for years
because most startups fail.

0:25:20.670,0:25:22.770
They're just, that's what,
they're very difficult.

0:25:22.830,0:25:23.310
Yeah.

0:25:23.310,0:25:25.140
And most people are
incompetent when they begin.

0:25:25.140,0:25:26.190
It's just hard.

0:25:27.010,0:25:29.410
But what keeps you going is
this problem is so interesting.

0:25:29.410,0:25:30.700
I really want to fix it.

0:25:31.735,0:25:33.895
And I didn't know what that
problem would be for me.

0:25:34.345,0:25:37.135
So I thought, I'm just gonna go through
as many problems as quickly as I can.

0:25:38.005,0:25:41.715
Individual problems, individual things
anything that people would come to me

0:25:41.715,0:25:43.095
with, I would just start researching it.

0:25:43.095,0:25:45.285
And that would often involve
writing a book about it.

0:25:45.375,0:25:46.335
That would be how I learn.

0:25:46.605,0:25:49.305
And in the meantime, I set myself
a syllabus of, by the time I

0:25:49.305,0:25:52.005
found the idea, I wanna make
sure I've got all the knowledge.

0:25:52.500,0:25:55.260
At least the most I can get away
with for starting a business.

0:25:55.260,0:25:56.820
I work for management consultancy.

0:25:56.820,0:25:58.500
I read business books and so on.

0:25:58.840,0:26:00.070
I learned more software.

0:26:00.070,0:26:02.920
I learned more about industry, and
so that was syllabus until I would

0:26:02.920,0:26:03.790
find the problem that I would.

0:26:03.790,0:26:04.270
Just a second.

0:26:04.270,0:26:05.585
So when you're doing these assignments.

0:26:05.905,0:26:08.545
Yes, you're taking this to
who's paying you to do them?

0:26:09.055,0:26:10.615
Much of the time no one was paying me.

0:26:10.615,0:26:11.035
Ah.

0:26:11.035,0:26:13.195
But there was somebody who
wanted the problem fixed.

0:26:13.195,0:26:16.105
And often I would do it for free, but I
would just wanted, so how were you living?

0:26:16.105,0:26:16.885
How were who?

0:26:17.065,0:26:19.745
Oh, so my day job was
after medical school.

0:26:19.815,0:26:23.385
I worked for one year as a doctor and
then I went to the States and worked as a

0:26:23.385,0:26:25.335
scientist for the US Federal Government.

0:26:25.855,0:26:26.455
And then.

0:26:26.860,0:26:29.920
During the time that I had my
idea on patients, their best,

0:26:29.920,0:26:31.330
I was a management consultant.

0:26:31.660,0:26:32.980
That was the final bit of my syllabus.

0:26:32.980,0:26:33.790
I wanted to learn.

0:26:34.270,0:26:34.660
Okay.

0:26:34.660,0:26:36.100
How people run hospitals.

0:26:36.100,0:26:38.380
So you actually have a job and
you're doing all this other

0:26:38.380,0:26:39.820
stuff in your spare time.

0:26:39.880,0:26:41.620
Yes.
You're reading business books.

0:26:41.620,0:26:41.770
Yes.

0:26:41.770,0:26:43.510
You've got conferences
and things going on.

0:26:43.510,0:26:45.460
You're taking on these
little side projects?

0:26:45.490,0:26:45.635
Yes.

0:26:45.635,0:26:49.180
And you're writing your own books because
you're learning while you're writing.

0:26:49.360,0:26:52.060
Correct.
It's a very interesting recipe for how to.

0:26:52.870,0:26:54.010
Start a business.

0:26:54.350,0:26:57.420
It's just, so what I like is the
learning and the experimenting.

0:26:57.520,0:27:00.190
And a business is a vehicle to do that.

0:27:00.190,0:27:00.690
Yeah.

0:27:00.700,0:27:01.749
Rather than yep.

0:27:01.749,0:27:04.840
So my wider family is very commercial.

0:27:04.840,0:27:05.770
They're all businessmen.

0:27:05.830,0:27:09.745
But my parents, my father's an
academic and my mother's an artist.

0:27:09.794,0:27:11.264
None of us are particularly commercial.

0:27:11.624,0:27:12.735
Yeah.
But we love learning.

0:27:13.310,0:27:16.159
And so we see business as a
way, I see business as a way

0:27:16.159,0:27:17.629
to learn rather than, yeah.

0:27:17.760,0:27:18.330
To make money.

0:27:18.389,0:27:22.290
I was listening to something Elon Musk
said the other day, I think it was Elon

0:27:22.290,0:27:26.979
Musk about people sometimes when you
have people in the business and they,

0:27:26.979,0:27:31.300
all these consultants and the experts
and they really learn this subject.

0:27:31.300,0:27:31.870
They're brilliant.

0:27:31.919,0:27:36.840
Business minds learned business and they
were always, when you present an idea.

0:27:37.270,0:27:41.245
To them give you a million, extremely
valid reasons why it will never work,

0:27:41.245,0:27:42.760
cannot be done work and cannot be done.

0:27:42.760,0:27:47.290
And yeah, you sometimes need to just say
thank you now let's spend equal amount

0:27:47.290,0:27:49.389
of time talking about why it can be done.

0:27:49.600,0:27:50.030
Yes.

0:27:50.030,0:27:52.220
Let's discuss that and I
suppose the freedom, the fact

0:27:52.220,0:27:53.570
that you weren't commercially.

0:27:54.540,0:27:58.560
Deadlines allowed you to expand
that mind, the two sides of

0:27:58.560,0:27:59.760
your mind working together.

0:27:59.760,0:28:01.620
I suppose that's like the
apps, the connections.

0:28:02.250,0:28:02.400
Yes.

0:28:02.400,0:28:04.980
Like it's interesting because that's
what exactly what you're doing.

0:28:05.520,0:28:07.320
Life is interesting in the interfaces.

0:28:07.350,0:28:07.800
Yes.

0:28:07.800,0:28:09.750
So whether it's two countries Yes.

0:28:09.755,0:28:12.060
Or two disciplines interface,
because there are two different,

0:28:12.060,0:28:13.290
there's a little bit of overlap.

0:28:13.350,0:28:14.910
Yes.
But they are two different.

0:28:15.330,0:28:15.830
Yeah.

0:28:16.230,0:28:19.840
Was is it prefrontal cortex
in your hyper hip hippo camp?

0:28:19.840,0:28:20.380
Is it the hippo?

0:28:22.070,0:28:23.180
But yeah, two different sides.

0:28:23.300,0:28:24.650
But it's tourism for the mind, right?

0:28:24.650,0:28:25.460
Tourism for the mind.

0:28:25.460,0:28:25.790
Yeah.

0:28:25.790,0:28:28.480
Gosh, your mind is definitely
being active there.

0:28:29.290,0:28:30.400
Okay.
So you are.

0:28:31.195,0:28:34.135
Then deciding you wanna
start this business?

0:28:34.255,0:28:36.235
And then tell me about the business.

0:28:36.295,0:28:37.825
What's, what is the name?

0:28:37.885,0:28:38.635
What is it?

0:28:39.395,0:28:42.935
So in 2007, one work for
that management consultancy.

0:28:42.935,0:28:47.825
My job was to write three books a year
on topics that my hospital clients chose.

0:28:48.425,0:28:54.385
And so one of them several of them said,
we want to know how to share medical

0:28:54.385,0:28:59.665
records with patients because everyone's
asking us to, as a hospital, CIO, but.

0:29:00.235,0:29:03.625
This could go really badly and it could
end up in the press if you do it wrong.

0:29:04.555,0:29:06.445
Yeah, for sure.
So tell us how to do it right.

0:29:07.115,0:29:10.225
I did, I wrote a book by interviewing all
the ones who've done it how'd you do it?

0:29:10.885,0:29:11.605
What do you avoid?

0:29:11.605,0:29:12.115
And so on.

0:29:12.205,0:29:14.335
And I and that book.

0:29:14.435,0:29:18.965
Included me interviewing Microsoft
CTO and Google, CTO, who were

0:29:18.965,0:29:23.104
launching their platforms on personal
health records that year in 2007.

0:29:23.104,0:29:23.195
Okay.

0:29:23.195,0:29:25.205
How did they, how did you
get them to talk to you?

0:29:25.955,0:29:30.074
I just worked the phone and just said,
I'm writing this book it's gonna go

0:29:30.074,0:29:32.204
to all the hospital CIOs in the USA.

0:29:32.624,0:29:33.854
I know you're launching this platform.

0:29:33.854,0:29:34.784
I saw idea quite nicely.

0:29:34.784,0:29:35.479
Yeah.
Yeah.

0:29:35.484,0:29:38.605
And and they wanted all the hospital
CIOs to connect to their platforms.

0:29:38.634,0:29:39.009
Okay.

0:29:39.009,0:29:39.509
Okay.

0:29:39.564,0:29:40.299
Was it the interest.

0:29:41.065,0:29:44.875
It was in their interest and they
they spoke candidly, but also I

0:29:44.875,0:29:50.324
think from the people who had spoken
to them, I got really technical.

0:29:50.804,0:29:54.254
So I spotted several bugs in
what they were describing.

0:29:54.254,0:29:55.214
Love that.
I love that.

0:29:55.214,0:29:55.281
Yeah.
Yeah.

0:29:55.281,0:29:57.434
And to their credit,
they enjoyed the comment.

0:29:57.434,0:29:59.745
They'd say, oh yeah, nobody's
spotted that before, but yes.

0:29:59.794,0:30:00.244
Yeah.
Oh yeah.

0:30:00.244,0:30:01.744
But we had to do this decision.

0:30:01.744,0:30:02.254
The devil is always in the detail.

0:30:02.404,0:30:03.334
Brilliant opportunity.

0:30:04.264,0:30:07.904
I knew I came to a
conclusion during that year.

0:30:08.694,0:30:12.834
One is that this technology of
giving people their records is

0:30:12.864,0:30:14.484
going to be really important.

0:30:15.234,0:30:17.814
And I knew that from my, not just from
the research, but from my personal

0:30:17.814,0:30:22.884
experience, that when my nurse in the
UK taught me how to inject myself with

0:30:22.884,0:30:26.094
those antibodies I was very grateful.

0:30:26.529,0:30:30.309
I had my independence, I could
travel, but I also stopped taking

0:30:30.309,0:30:32.319
up a hospital bed every three weeks.

0:30:33.129,0:30:36.099
And me doing the injection
was higher quality than

0:30:36.099,0:30:37.599
waiting the hospital to do it.

0:30:38.109,0:30:43.509
And giving the data to the person does
that at scale for many more people.

0:30:43.569,0:30:46.029
So this is a really big idea.

0:30:47.259,0:30:50.559
And the second thing I concluded
was everyone was doing it wrong.

0:30:51.699,0:30:52.809
Including Microsoft and Google.

0:30:52.809,0:30:55.899
So they're going, I can just see this
is gonna fail in three or four years

0:30:55.899,0:31:00.579
time and I really need this to happen.

0:31:00.579,0:31:04.869
As a pers, as a patient, I really
want this P problem fixed and

0:31:04.869,0:31:05.859
they're all doing it wrong.

0:31:06.519,0:31:09.639
So I. I want, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fix it.

0:31:10.389,0:31:16.159
So you had in terms of an entrepreneurial
side here, you had a really firm, possibly

0:31:16.159,0:31:21.649
somewhat naive, but belief, but determined
that even these great big companies,

0:31:21.649,0:31:23.659
like actually you're doing it wrong.

0:31:23.749,0:31:28.849
And I believe that I've got the solution,
but then what's interesting that you had,

0:31:28.849,0:31:31.189
and I wonder where you got the skill.

0:31:31.244,0:31:32.654
I can't see where you got it.

0:31:32.654,0:31:39.524
But like you realize that you had to
sell this like mutually beneficial thing

0:31:39.524,0:31:43.604
to get these people in to talk to you
because they're the credible people,

0:31:43.604,0:31:47.414
the big names that you need so that you
can start to develop these Yes, these

0:31:47.414,0:31:49.154
ideas, this platform, this business.

0:31:49.159,0:31:54.224
So you had the guts and the
know-how to sell your concept to

0:31:54.224,0:31:55.784
them so they would talk to you.

0:31:56.219,0:31:57.060
That's quite interesting.

0:31:57.060,0:31:59.829
So growing up even though it takes
you three years to make friends.

0:32:00.289,0:32:03.679
So growing up my brother makes
friends quickly and he's the salesman.

0:32:04.159,0:32:06.409
Yeah.
And I don't, and I'm the academic.

0:32:06.469,0:32:06.949
Yeah.

0:32:06.949,0:32:10.009
He's now an academic with amazing
friendship groups, by the way.

0:32:10.549,0:32:12.049
And you're the salesman, but I'm
the businessman, so it's strange how

0:32:12.049,0:32:16.029
these things flip, but if you see it,
watch my brother, as a young yeah.

0:32:16.029,0:32:19.959
He's four years younger than me, but still
talks very eloquently if you watch him.

0:32:20.259,0:32:21.939
He's always looking in.

0:32:23.319,0:32:24.339
What can I do for you?

0:32:25.029,0:32:26.109
That's how you make friends.

0:32:26.169,0:32:27.339
That's how you get cooperation.

0:32:27.669,0:32:28.629
How can I help you?

0:32:28.735,0:32:30.740
If you find that then they'll help you.

0:32:31.530,0:32:33.270
You start small and you keep going.

0:32:33.880,0:32:37.350
Even, even in medicine convincing
a patient to take a pill.

0:32:38.220,0:32:39.060
It's a sales job.

0:32:39.690,0:32:40.020
Yeah.

0:32:40.020,0:32:42.810
You have to, what's in it for
them with all the side effects

0:32:42.810,0:32:43.890
and all the problems they have.

0:32:44.430,0:32:47.520
You don't, it's just given
the prescription does nothing.

0:32:48.300,0:32:51.150
And so on the wards, talking to
patients and figuring out what's

0:32:51.150,0:32:53.895
going on in their lives and saying,
this is why you should take it.

0:32:54.135,0:32:54.615
Yeah.

0:32:54.615,0:32:55.365
That's enjoyable.

0:32:55.935,0:32:58.155
So one last question
about the business side.

0:32:58.500,0:33:02.100
What's the one thing about running a
business and no one tells you that you've

0:33:02.100,0:33:04.770
learned that you can feed back now.

0:33:05.380,0:33:06.220
You wish you had known.

0:33:06.550,0:33:06.910
Yeah.

0:33:06.910,0:33:15.860
That everybody in the company is there to
fill in to fix your, fill in your gaps.

0:33:16.069,0:33:20.479
So from that perspective, once you
understand that, you realize being the

0:33:20.479,0:33:25.699
CEO is, and to be trite it's very easy
because you're surrounded by people whose

0:33:25.699,0:33:29.870
job it is to fix all the mistakes that
you make and all the gaps that you have.

0:33:29.989,0:33:32.929
But then the flip side is
that means your job is to.

0:33:33.469,0:33:39.569
Find these people and convince them
to work on this problem with you.

0:33:40.299,0:33:41.169
And that's your role.

0:33:41.174,0:33:43.104
And finding them takes time.

0:33:43.244,0:33:47.204
'Cause it's not just about do they have
the skills, it's do they have the values

0:33:47.204,0:33:51.014
and are they really, will they become
as obsessed with that problem is you.

0:33:51.284,0:33:56.054
And people always say you should hire
people smarter than you and you should.

0:33:56.684,0:33:59.744
But the flip side of that is the
world is full of people working

0:33:59.744,0:34:00.674
for people dumber than them.

0:34:00.734,0:34:01.784
Which is very irritating.

0:34:02.564,0:34:09.314
So you must be as minimally irritating as
possible for these people who are smarter.

0:34:09.314,0:34:09.519
Yes.
Irritating.

0:34:09.519,0:34:10.004
I love that.

0:34:10.004,0:34:11.444
For these people who are
smarter than you Yes.

0:34:11.444,0:34:13.784
And agreeing to work
with you on this problem.

0:34:13.784,0:34:14.284
Yes.

0:34:14.454,0:34:16.914
So that, that's where the,
that's where the focus has to be.

0:34:18.279,0:34:18.779
Thank you.

0:34:18.849,0:34:21.969
And thank you so much for that
and for coming on the podcast.

0:34:21.969,0:34:22.469
It's my pleasure.