The Price of Staying True to Your Values

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This is a really interesting episode because 
we have Gene Fawkes, who was actually on the

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American Apprentice and he had a run in 
with Trump. So we are going to get into

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that. We're talking about a military guy versus 
one of the most powerful men in the world who

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wasn't president then, but believe you me, 
he was already a force to be reckoned with.

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So tune in to find out what happened.

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Listen, thank you so much. For coming on 
Beyond the Boardroom podcast. I am delighted

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to have you for so many reasons. Apprentice, 
you've been on the U. S. version in 2010.

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Yes, 2010.

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Right. And I was on the UK 
version. So you had Trump,

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I had Lord Sugar. So that is a connection 
you don't get every day, both on Apprentice.

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And also I think we're both interested in 
politics on some level. So. You are the best

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guest to have on. Oh, thank

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you. You're the best host.

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So tell us a bit about your roots 
and how those influenced you.

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I am a product of a Jamaican 
father and American mother

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having roots in both places. I think 
that comes with a unique perspective.

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Um, globally, cause my family looks 
like the UN, right? My family has a

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history of service starting from my 
great grandmother to My grandmother,

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who was a foster parent, I think at 
one point she had 15 kids in her home.

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Really? So,

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yeah, yeah, my mother was the same way. And so, 
I went to an air show one time and fell in love

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with, um, the sharpness and the discipline 
and, The civility of young military veterans

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and I acclimated into the Air Force and spent 10 
years serving here and in Europe and honorably

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discharged and then became a recruiter 
and picked up, um, that legacy of service.

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And so I began to help young men 
and women matriculate into the

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military. And then when I got out of 
the military and went into corporate,

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I ended up doing the same thing, 
mentoring young men and women.

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Do you consider yourself a 
confident and driven person?

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Um,

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it's a tricky question, isn't it? You don't want 
to sound sort of, you know, but, you know, direct.

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Part of the problem is that we're not direct,

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right? I think there's a healthy way 
to say I'm a confident, driven person.

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I would say I'm confident in the fact that. 
I know my strengths and my weaknesses and I

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know that I'm ever evolving and growing and 
I'm comfortable and confident. The fact that

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even though I may not know everything, 
but I know that I can figure it out.

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I always make this joke. Do you want 
to get on an airplane with a pilot?

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This confident or not confident that 
he's gonna be able to land the plane?

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Yeah, of course. We

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want to go into surgery with. a cocky surgeon 
with an impeccable track record, or the guy that's

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kind of unclear and not able to make the right 
decisions, then you might get the sucers left in.

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You said something really interesting, which is 
about obviously the balance between the sort of

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being confident, but not being a narcissist. And 
I think, yeah, I think in that is you don't want

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also that empty confidence. You kind of have 
to earn your confidence. Even if, let's say you

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haven't got all the stars and you're not sort of 
qualified in something fully, if you have the sort

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of confidence that you think, you know what, I can 
ask, I can find out, I can get that information.

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Yeah,

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no, it's simpatico. It's so weird 
that you came up with that, which,

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which Is not surprising. Um, I think 
confident people truly authentically

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confident people are not afraid to ask 
for help. And I think that's a, uh,

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an epidemic within leadership, right? Um, you 
know, leaders are meant to replace themselves.

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And yet we find ourselves, we have a rising young 
star and we want to challenge them. But that's

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not true leadership. True leadership is to 
replace myself without feeling threatened.

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With the military, there's a military 
regime. There's getting up very early.

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There's doing things you don't want to do.

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There's taking orders. There's humbling yourself.

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Everyone's the same. What 
have you taken from that?

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I did 10 years in the Air Force. It 
was honor to be discharged. I was, uh,

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somewhat rebellious in a way. You would think 
that having spent so much time in the military,

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That I would be pro military regime, and I am 
not that those skills are transferable into

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the civilian sector because there is a sense of 
honor and duty and integrity and responsibility.

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I'm not saying that every military person 
is perfect, but I'm saying that within

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the military, um, lifestyle, There is an 
expectation of brotherhood, sisterhood,

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that we kind of speak the same language 
and we know how to sort of, you know,

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have a little bit more self control when it 
comes to knowing when to question authority.

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And then when it comes to knowing 
when to follow those orders,

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if something goes down, I at least 
have a framework from which to come

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from to do the best that I can to 
protect myself and other people.

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Apprentice.

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Yes.

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Why oh, why did you go on it?

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It was 2008, Alexandria. And, uh, 
I think I was working on a project.

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Um, on a real estate project and I had some 
friends out in L. A. And they called me and

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they said, Hey, you know, there's a 
slot on the apprentice. And I said,

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sure, I'd be interested. I figured 
that the star of the apprentice was

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a real estate magnet. I had a 35Million dollar 
deal on the table. I needed another 5Million.

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It just kind of made sense to me. Um, it 
really was like this, but they called me,

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they said, send in the tape. And then tell 
us who you are. And I did everything wrong,

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right? Cause it was so last minute and 
I sent it to them and then they said,

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we're going to send you an airline ticket to 
fly out to LA to go through your background.

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So

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they wanted a piece to camera. 
Sorry for, they wanted to

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make sure that you can, is that, is 
that what happens with most of the

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candidates in America or no, that was an 
unusual thing. So normally they would go

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through some sort of interview process 
like we have in the UK, which takes.

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Right. That's what I'm saying.

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Normally what happens is people apply for 
the program and then if you get invited,

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if they're interested, then what happens 
is they'll have you go through rounds of

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interviews. I didn't go through that process 
because by the time I got there, a lot of the

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other 15 candidates had, had a recall that they 
had met doing the interviewing round at one slot.

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And so mine was very unusual. They 
literally had just called me. I sent

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a tape and I didn't interview 
with anyone. Right. I didn't,

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I didn't interview with any of the other 
candidates. No one in interviewing anybody.

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I didn't meet Donald. I didn't meet anyone. 
So they literally flew me out to LA. I went

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through psychological, you know how it goes, 
psychological, criminal background, hoax bank.

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And then next, you know, I fly back. I was in 
Dallas, flew back to Dallas. And then I got a

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call and they said, pack your bags. When it's 
in the ticket and you're going to New York,

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you've been accepted on the apprentice. 
What do you like to eat? And I was like, Oh,

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okay. So within two weeks, I had this whirlwind 
situation and I just ended up saying, let's do it.

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And so I ended up flying to New York and, 
and, uh, going through that whole experience.

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Do you think Trump had a, had quite a 
say in that then? Did he sort of think,

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yeah, this guy can, can go on camera. He's,

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he's pretty good. Go for it. Cause he likes to 
just, um, sometimes use his instinct, I suppose.

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Yeah. From what I understand, he handpicked, 
um, uh, me and, uh, I don't know why.

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So, um, uh, and I hadn't had any encounters 
with him prior to that. So. Um, he has a lot of,

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because he owned the program, uh, I 
guess I think 50 percent of it. And he

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was an executive producer. He had say in who 
would come on the program and who wouldn't.

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Yeah. I mean, in the UK, 
it's literally. Yeah. Well,

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probably it must be this in this way, similar 
in the U S that you, you got fast track there.

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That was really quite cool. I think 
for you, and then for the rest of the,

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the rest of the herd, you kind of have 
to go through this application process,

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people from around the country, go in all the 
cities, you have a central location and they go

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to these various central locations and there's 
hundreds and hundreds of thousands of them.

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And then there's different phases, different 
levels, you possibly can, you can be there for

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the whole day. Then you come back, then you come 
back again and then they just whittle it down,

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whittle it down, whittle it down, whittle 
it down. And I suppose the piece to camera,

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um, although I think they are filming 
you anyway, the whole time when they're

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doing this, but the actual conscious 
piece of camera, like we've got it

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now, it's only towards the end that that's like 
sort of the final, well, one of the final steps.

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There's a lot of hoops. There's 
a lot of Most people don't

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realize Alexandria, and I know, and I'm so 
glad talking to you because you can sort of,

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you can sort of breathe and And, and, um, 
share this experience. And I don't know how

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difficult your post experience, your post Prince's 
experience has been, but it's interesting because,

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uh, and I know we're going to get to this 
at some point, but it's like, You know,

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people think you're, it's so weird the reaction 
you get from people once they see you on sort of

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international television or in your country, 
like they recognize you, but they don't.

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And then friendships can change and, you know, 
things can get somewhat challenging because,

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you know, there's this idea of, you know, 
celebrity, right. And you're just kind of like,

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no, I'm just a normal person 
that just decided to do X, Y,

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Z. And I think a lot of people don't realize. the 
how, how grueling the, the selection process is.

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You're talking about some of the, I mean, like on 
my episode, half of them were ivy league lawyers,

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right? And I think that people don't 
realize the pool from which you know,

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there's so many talented people, right? 
And you have to have almost like this magic

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formula. I don't know if you felt that way, 
but you almost have to have like this magic

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formula that says I'm gonna bet on you and 
it can, you know, it can change your life.

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In a way that's, that's interesting. 
Um, and, and it really, you know,

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you do have to be a confident driven person 
to good or bad to not let it get to you.

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Yeah, I think, um, I don't know if

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you found that.

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Yeah. I mean, I, I think, well, I think 
similarly here, anyone that actually

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makes it to the show has got something, you 
know, there might be, they all personalities

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that are big personalities for sure, but 
they've also got something business wise,

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even if they are a little bit out there 
and a little bit, you know, whatever.

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They have something, some sort of 
mechanism, some sort of business

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plan that's credible because of course the 
bigger brand, so the Trump brand, Lord Sugar,

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they wouldn't associate themselves with anyone 
that didn't have the right sort of something,

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whatever it is, to attach themselves. to even 
just coming on the program, they're very careful

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who they associate themselves with, because 
then you obviously become part of this brand.

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Even now we're talking about it. There's this 
thing that will stick with you for the rest

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of your life, even if you don't want it, it's, 
it's, you know, it's with everyone that applies is

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good. And, um, but in the UK, they probably make 
fun of the contestants more like the production

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or more, um, brutal. Just like our media here 
is really like when they want to go, they will.

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So over here, they've got no problem making you 
look really silly and whatever. I was quite lucky,

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but I have been interviewing quite a few 
candidates and some of them, you know,

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have struggled to find work afterwards or 
whatever, because they'd be made to look

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a certain way when they anything, but 
they're very smart and credible people.

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So, so what's it like in the U 
S do you think that they make

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the candidates look A little bit better. 
Um, or do they also sort of go for you?

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No, they don't. I think that my 
experience, uh, was, you know,

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challenging because like we had just 
discussed, they got me raw and, you know,

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you sign these contracts and non disclosures 
and, you know, you're so excited to be on

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the program and you're trying to read 
the fine print and do that whole thing.

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And you don't realize that you're giving your life 
over to a large media organization. Who is in the

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business of getting ratings and they will do so 
by any means necessary. And so it's very, um,

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uh, similar. It's interesting 
that you said that about the UK,

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because I would think the UK 
would be nicer, but we're rough.

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I don't know how they do it in the UK, but I know 
in the U S we didn't get to see our episodes.

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Right. We didn't get to see the process. And so I 
remember when, after the show started airing and,

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and I didn't really watch it very much 
because at the time I was so traumatized,

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um, we were asking each other questions like, I 
don't remember you being in that room or that's

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not exactly how that went down or, you know, 
cause they are filming, filming you all the time.

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And so they literally get to draw a narrative. 
And that narrative gets, it was brutal. I mean,

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the, you know, the gossip, the gossip columns 
and, um, the way that people would characterize

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you based on what you were saying or what 
you're doing a lot of times on, you know,

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cause they throw these tasks at you that 
you're just kind of, you know, scrambling.

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And so they're, they're recording you even 
in times where you're not cognizant that they

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are. And then they might take that and insert 
that into, you know, a narrative that says you

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look like an idiot, right? And without any, 
um, without any thought about you have to go

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back into real life. The Apprentice is unique 
among all reality television shows, I believe.

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Because it's not a dating show. You take real 
business people who have worked their lives

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and in different vocations, there are real world 
consequences to how you're being portrayed that

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can ruin your life. And you, right, make 
it very difficult for you to, you know,

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brush that off in a way, right. To where you're 
able to function in the, in, in the real world.

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Well, the thing is, though, that when you're 
signing all these documents and the NDAs and

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all of that, that print, if you pay close 
attention, really what you're doing and

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you won't really know this. In the true 
form until you're actually in it. But

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what you're doing is handing over control 
of your own brand to that bigger brand.

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That brand has the PR behind them and all that 
stuff and the budget to protect, you know,

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in your case, it's the Trump brand 
with a, with a show. And in our case,

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it's the broad sugar brand. And then also the 
show, it's a BBC production. So there's obviously,

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there's a lot of PR that goes into it. And the 
loyalty And the budget is towards that you do

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not unless you are loaded and have your own PR 
people and protection, you are on your own, right?

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We have not signed up for anyone making 
us look good. And I suppose the risk

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isn't that apparent until you're in it 
and you're realizing I quickly clocked

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very quickly. What, that it was more 
TV and less business very quickly,

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you know, then you start to navigate and 
go, well, how can I take control back here?

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And is it worth it? And there's millions of 
people watching and you're aware of, of the

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games being played and all of that, 
you know, without giving too much,

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you, you, you become quickly, 
you know, so it's, um, right,

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right. Well, I, well, I can, I can give away quite 
a bit. I think you're right. In the sense that.

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You know, I didn't go on the program to play a 
game. I was just a guy who had left investment

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banking, who started a small firm and had a pretty 
sizable project. And it made sense to me at the

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time. What I did not anticipate was everything 
that you just said. The fact of the matter is,

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is that there's these huge brands 
and they're not there to protect me.

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They're really there for entertainment. 
And I didn't really expect it. them to

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be protective. Um, I saw it as an opportunity, uh,

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good or bad to be on an international stage 
and sort of showcase who I am and what I can

0:16:23.440,0:16:28.920
do. Now, obviously things didn't work out the 
way I planned because of my military background.

0:16:29.760,0:16:34.320
Um, uh, there's a saying that we have in Texas 
that says, I'm going to, I'm going to show you

0:16:34.320,0:16:41.840
how the cow eats the cabbage. Right. And, um, 
you know, once I realized that I was playing a

0:16:41.840,0:16:47.240
game because they would always try to coach me to 
say this and coach me to say that. And I'm like,

0:16:47.240,0:16:53.200
I'm not doing that. I think I was 
told once that I wasn't playing ball.

0:16:53.200,0:17:02.680
Okay. It became, um, a situation for me, 
Alexandra, to where I just didn't want to play.

0:17:02.680,0:17:10.000
Right. And I was not going to play and you can 
make me you're trying to get viewership up. Um,

0:17:10.000,0:17:17.760
And you don't really care how you do it. That 
goes against how I look at business. I'm not

0:17:17.760,0:17:23.280
going to throw people into a pit just so 
I can walk over their bodies to do that.

0:17:23.280,0:17:28.840
And for what reason, right? Um, that was the 
tone at the time. And I remember having a

0:17:29.880,0:17:38.840
adversarial conversation with and, uh, NBC 
and basically said, uh, in my military way,

0:17:38.840,0:17:44.680
You know, F the Trump brand, F the apprentice 
brand and F the NBC brand. There's a gene

0:17:44.680,0:17:50.000
folks brand that I've actually put into 
perspective over these last 30 or 40 years.

0:17:50.000,0:17:52.600
And when you're someone in 
America that looks like me,

0:17:52.600,0:18:00.200
that becomes problematic because I've worked 
so hard to avoid those stereotypes. And I

0:18:00.200,0:18:07.520
haven't done it with a chip on my shoulder or 
angry. I'm just know that if I focus on. Um,

0:18:07.520,0:18:13.320
my competence is competency. Whatever 
problems you have with me or not are not mine.

0:18:13.320,0:18:19.480
They're yours. Do you want to be successful and 
work around someone that has integrity and loyalty

0:18:19.480,0:18:24.600
and can you get past yourself? Can I do that? And 
so NBC and I had this battle because they were

0:18:24.600,0:18:31.640
portraying those very stereotypes that I've had to 
overcome. And it wasn't until I spoke to lawyers,

0:18:31.640,0:18:35.560
cause we got really adversarial that I 
said, you guys are damaging my brain.

0:18:35.560,0:18:39.080
How do you want to play this? I don't 
care about an NDA. Nobody's shooting at

0:18:39.080,0:18:43.280
me. So let's go. And they were completely silent.

0:18:43.280,0:18:48.240
From what I've found, it just really depends 
like your headspace. Where is that at? Um,

0:18:48.240,0:18:50.880
obviously there's an awareness 
of how you're being portrayed

0:18:50.880,0:18:54.800
and whether that's successful or not 
successful and how that's going to look,

0:18:54.800,0:19:00.000
but then there's also how much you, you 
wanted, I suppose, like the end goal.

0:19:00.000,0:19:04.240
What is it that I'm going for? What am 
I prepared to put on the table to get,

0:19:04.240,0:19:08.080
to, to that point. Is that important? Am 
I prepared to put this onto the table to

0:19:08.080,0:19:11.760
risk to get this thing? Or actually, 
do I not even want the reward? That's

0:19:11.760,0:19:17.680
a very important question. And then that 
sort of together comes to, to determine.

0:19:17.680,0:19:23.440
the outcome, I guess, and whether you want to 
stay on and I suppose your, your whole attitude

0:19:23.440,0:19:28.800
towards that thing. So some really wanted it, 
you know, there was nothing else going on,

0:19:28.800,0:19:33.680
let's say in their life at that point, no kids, no 
this, no that. And it's like, you know, I'm, I'm

0:19:33.680,0:19:37.840
basically young and broken on the, on basically 
on the street and all in a, in a student hostel.

0:19:37.840,0:19:41.400
So, Let me just go for it. This is it. I'm 
going to put everything there. I'm just going

0:19:41.400,0:19:45.800
to block out the noise. Yes. All this stuff 
is going on. Yes. They doing this. Yes. My,

0:19:45.800,0:19:49.160
my, my brand is at risk, but you know what? 
I don't even have a proper brand anyway. I'm

0:19:49.160,0:19:53.880
just going to go now. Let's rush and let's 
go. And then that sort of energy, I think.

0:19:53.880,0:19:57.200
older the contest, so, you know, there's a very 
different, big difference between someone who's

0:19:57.200,0:20:02.200
22, someone who's 32, someone who's 42. Your, 
your needs, your, your risk that you're prepared

0:20:02.200,0:20:09.240
to take is, is all different. Um, for me, you 
know, I, I had already had, you know, three little

0:20:09.240,0:20:14.240
children at home. I was moving house and that 
I wasn't probably in the right frame for this.

0:20:14.240,0:20:17.840
However, the whole interview 
process and being on the show,

0:20:17.840,0:20:24.840
that was all interesting. I enjoyed the tasks. 
I did well on them and all that, but you know,

0:20:24.840,0:20:29.360
you know, you kind of realize the gameplay in 
this and then you think, well. Not for me. It

0:20:29.360,0:20:33.840
depends on where you are. I did the 
same thing. I walked away, right?

0:20:33.840,0:20:39.600
Um, very acrimoniously. Whenever you 
present someone with an opportunity,

0:20:39.600,0:20:43.760
if that, there are some people that are willing to 
do anything to make that opportunity work. Yeah, a

0:20:43.760,0:20:44.680
hundred.

0:20:44.680,0:20:49.400
I am not of that mind. I am not 
of that mindset. And listen,

0:20:49.400,0:20:54.680
I'm not saying that I'm some angelic 
saint or whatever, because I'm not.

0:20:54.680,0:20:59.280
I'm a flawed human being like everyone else. But 
there are just certain things that I'm not willing

0:20:59.280,0:21:10.120
to do. And I'm not going to kiss anybody's ring 
or, um, you know, expose myself just so I can get

0:21:10.120,0:21:16.520
ahead when that doesn't really matter. And, you 
know, you and I, I think, you know, I had, I had,

0:21:16.520,0:21:21.200
um, had a lot of respect for Donald Trump in the 
eighties as a young business student coming up.

0:21:21.200,0:21:24.080
And, you know, he's just real estate 
magnet. And I always tell people,

0:21:24.080,0:21:28.080
be careful meeting your heroes. And, 
you know, he wrote this book and also

0:21:28.080,0:21:35.600
stuff. And then I met him, we had a one 
on one sit down and this is not political,

0:21:35.600,0:21:42.680
but personally I was just not impressed. I 
can respect, um, you know, what you've done.

0:21:42.680,0:21:46.560
I mean, if my father gave me 400 million, I 
hope I could flip that into something big,

0:21:46.560,0:21:50.600
right? Because that's, that's Trump's story. He's 
not a self made billionaire. Um, and I would think

0:21:50.600,0:21:58.520
that once you've, you can be sharp and you can 
be, um, shrewd, but you don't have to be cruel.

0:21:59.640,0:22:04.800
And that's what I felt. I made the right 
call by saying, if you want to fire me,

0:22:04.800,0:22:07.360
then F and fire me because I'm not doing that.

0:22:07.360,0:22:08.000
So what you

0:22:08.000,0:22:13.560
said, and that is what I said. Yeah. 
Yeah. And I think Don jr said this,

0:22:13.560,0:22:18.200
he goes, so why did you just fall on your 
sword? Why did you just do that? Well,

0:22:18.200,0:22:22.920
you're trying to lead me down a 
question, a path that. Does not

0:22:22.920,0:22:28.520
align with what happened. I'm not going to 
just say yes. So I can stay on a program.

0:22:29.040,0:22:35.560
And by this point, I'm okay with walking 
away from it. So if you want to fire me,

0:22:35.560,0:22:38.760
F and fire me, I don't care. 
That's exactly how that went.

0:22:42.960,0:22:46.160
Yeah. So, yeah, I don't care 
how much money's on the table.

0:22:46.160,0:22:49.600
I don't care what the opportunity looks 
like. And I, and I think that that's a,

0:22:49.600,0:23:00.680
that's a. A reality television, um, lesson, 
I believe that we're facing and, um, um,

0:23:00.680,0:23:07.280
real in real business. Right. This sort of lack 
of, you know, profits over people or whatever.

0:23:07.280,0:23:12.800
I don't care if you're a billionaire. 
I'm not doing that. So I'm, I'm out.

0:23:12.800,0:23:16.160
So what's that, what's that hard for you?

0:23:16.160,0:23:19.480
Um, you know, he did one rare thing 
with me when I walked off. He says,

0:23:19.480,0:23:21.840
you know, you didn't give me a 
trick, came down loose in his

0:23:21.840,0:23:25.800
tie. It doesn't like to shake hands 
and stuff. Tall guy, taller than me.

0:23:25.800,0:23:28.440
And he said, you know, you 
really didn't give me a choice.

0:23:29.240,0:23:38.400
But to fire you, I said, I know, right? So do I 
regret the way that I did it? Absolutely not. I

0:23:38.400,0:23:44.960
do not. I do not regret the fact that, you 
know, I chose me that day. And I chose not

0:23:44.960,0:23:52.160
to play the game. Um, I think what's been 
challenging has been his responses as if

0:23:52.160,0:23:57.520
you guys are watching how Trump talks about 
his adversaries, uh, in the U S and when

0:23:57.520,0:24:02.760
you are a person that has that sort of reach 
and that power and those resources, you know,

0:24:02.760,0:24:08.360
it takes, it only takes a little bit of money 
to make, you know, your quote unquote adversary.

0:24:08.360,0:24:11.320
Um, and so I think what's 
been challenging has been,

0:24:11.320,0:24:18.200
His attacks and the nature of those attacks 
and how he comes at it. My end, my attitude

0:24:18.200,0:24:26.720
is I can run and hide or I can keep shining 
the light and, you know, do what I do did

0:24:26.720,0:24:31.120
in the military is if there's danger, I'm 
gonna run, I'm gonna run towards a fire.

0:24:31.120,0:24:36.360
So, no, I don't, I don't regret telling 
him to suck it. , he had a young lady

0:24:36.360,0:24:39.280
come up in front of him in the boardroom 
'cause you know it's a SAT and he had a

0:24:39.280,0:24:45.680
twirl for him. We all went shopping because 
he wanted the women to be more provocative,

0:24:45.680,0:24:49.520
right? That there's a camera on 
that somewhere. Somebody has that.

0:24:49.520,0:24:54.200
I thought you were an eloquent 
person, but this happened when

0:24:54.200,0:24:58.320
there's a video out there that you see, I 
wear glasses, right? I wear bifocals and,

0:24:58.960,0:25:02.480
and there's a video out there of me saying, 
Hey, I need to go get my glasses. I don't have

0:25:02.480,0:25:06.880
them because I can't see the fine print 
on what you guys are asking me to read.

0:25:06.880,0:25:11.000
But the way that that was narrative was 
portrayed was as if I was an idiot with a,

0:25:11.000,0:25:15.320
with a lifetime of public speaking, by 
the way, an idiot who couldn't form a

0:25:15.320,0:25:24.840
sentence. And that those are all those 
racial tropes that come to, um, you know,

0:25:24.840,0:25:30.240
that you sort of have unfortunately become 
familiar with, didn't want it trying to do

0:25:30.240,0:25:39.440
a deal grateful for some of it at the 
same time, I think to be insensitive.

0:25:40.280,0:25:49.800
or not. Um, to other peo were comments about, you 
fired me, one of the pers for him, he was like,

0:25:49.800,0:25:56.800
you And then she said, you know, I work for you, 
Mr. Trump. She happened to look like me. So you

0:25:56.800,0:26:02.120
just assume that, you know, these two people of 
color are a couple. What are you talking about? I

0:26:02.120,0:26:04.680
can't speak about the, 
obviously with a racism thing.

0:26:04.680,0:26:07.080
I mean, that's, you know, you've 
got this experience. You've,

0:26:07.080,0:26:12.760
you've heard what you've heard and seen what 
you've seen. I think on the women thing, um,

0:26:12.760,0:26:20.400
the thing about someone like him, the Trump, 
and I do say someone like, because my. Dad,

0:26:20.400,0:26:28.480
he's like a typical Polish dad. Some of the things 
that he says, and he loves women and beautiful

0:26:28.480,0:26:31.000
and looking lovely and, you know, 
but he'll say things like that.

0:26:31.000,0:26:36.400
I know that in today's society, if he 
did speak about what he says publicly,

0:26:36.400,0:26:41.320
he'll be penciled. Then, then he'll, you 
know, I don't like you wear a skirt. Come on,

0:26:41.320,0:26:44.640
wear a nice skirt. Show it, show your 
legs. If you've got pretty legs, show them,

0:26:44.640,0:26:51.240
put on some high heels, you know, all those things 
Get slaughtered and he doesn't mean harm by that.

0:26:51.240,0:26:56.240
I think sometimes, you know, sometimes we take 
things a little bit and I also think some of the

0:26:56.240,0:27:00.440
things you, that like, you know, About the 
glasses and that. I think a lot of that is

0:27:00.440,0:27:06.840
the whole production thing that you were sucked 
into where they make some TV and that TV will,

0:27:06.840,0:27:12.800
you are going to be the lamb that comes to 
slaughter because that's a golden TV moment

0:27:12.800,0:27:19.440
like that is what, that is what you've signed 
when, when you got awful, it shouldn't happen.

0:27:20.240,0:27:24.920
That's, I suppose, the interesting thing about 
this whole messed up situation. You know,

0:27:24.920,0:27:28.360
this is what we're talking about. It's 
like, it's crazy. Yes, it is good TV.

0:27:28.360,0:27:31.280
Yes, in a way, we want to see these 
people suffering and squirming,

0:27:31.280,0:27:35.520
and that's why we watch the show. But then 
you're on it, and you're the one suffering

0:27:35.520,0:27:39.600
and squirming, and then your reputation's 
affected, and then it's like, whoa, whoa.

0:27:39.600,0:27:44.840
I'll say this about what you were saying 
about Trump and, And people of that ilk,

0:27:44.840,0:27:51.600
you know, I always respect, I'm a candid person 
and I always respect people that are candid and

0:27:51.600,0:27:56.560
I get his generation and I don't believe 
in cancel culture. Um, I think, you know,

0:27:56.560,0:28:03.720
what I fought for were people's rights to disagree 
and be who they are and sure, the world's changed.

0:28:03.720,0:28:08.800
Do I think it's gone way too far the other 
way? Absolutely. Right? There's, there's,

0:28:08.800,0:28:14.320
you know, there's misogyny and then there's, 
you know, there's toxic masculinity. Look, I,

0:28:14.320,0:28:21.320
in some ways, I respect, um, just becomes 
a shocker. The fact that, you know, I did

0:28:21.320,0:28:24.520
have a lot of respect for the way 
that he handled his businesses and

0:28:24.520,0:28:28.120
he did offer me a position within his 
company out of all the 15 candidates.

0:28:29.040,0:28:35.680
Um, and, and I said no to that, but, uh, 
I also respect the fact that, you know,

0:28:35.680,0:28:40.400
he's unafraid to speak his mind. That's why I 
said, I don't believe in sort of cancel culture,

0:28:40.400,0:28:46.800
whether I agree with him or not. Right. 
Um, I think though, when you do it in a

0:28:46.800,0:28:51.520
way that's malicious, And meant to hurt 
people, then that needs to be addressed.

0:28:51.520,0:28:57.280
Trump knows exactly what he's saying, what 
he's doing. I love the fact that he speaks

0:28:57.280,0:29:01.040
his mind. He doesn't like when you push 
back, but I think there's a difference

0:29:01.040,0:29:07.240
between someone like that. He's almost like 
a benevolent sexist or benevolent racist. And

0:29:07.240,0:29:19.320
I think he's so clueless in some sense on the 
potential, um, Uh, responses that he would get.

0:29:19.320,0:29:24.800
And he's so full of himself and he doesn't 
really care. And I don't think that's healthy.

0:29:24.800,0:29:28.040
You know, listening to you, it's tough because I.

0:29:28.640,0:29:34.400
Obviously I'm in the UK. I watch a lot of 
the different media channels. I see what

0:29:34.400,0:29:38.160
the BBC has to say. I'll listen to what Al 
Jazeera has to say. I'll watch a bit of CNN.

0:29:38.160,0:29:41.880
I might even tap into a bit of Fox. I 
might also watch some YouTube channels

0:29:41.880,0:29:45.640
and what Piers Morgan has to say. 
And I like to spread the net really,

0:29:45.640,0:29:51.360
really wide when it comes to media. I love the 
different perspectives. I have a sister, um,

0:29:51.360,0:29:58.040
who lives in America. She lives in Michigan state 
and she's married to a I mean, they love Trump.

0:29:58.680,0:30:01.120
They love him. They really do. They think

0:30:01.120,0:30:04.960
he is great. I can understand 
from my sister's perspective.

0:30:04.960,0:30:09.600
You know, I've, I've struggled because I've 
lived in a very conservative state and like you,

0:30:09.600,0:30:12.400
I like to listen to liberal. I 
like to listen to conservative.

0:30:12.400,0:30:16.920
Most people think that New York and 
California are the majority of America.

0:30:16.920,0:30:22.320
When in reality, it's not. States like Michigan, 
where my daughter lives in Michigan, it's states

0:30:22.320,0:30:29.360
like Michigan and Texas and Ohio and Indiana 
Who may not subscribe to such a liberal mindset.

0:30:29.360,0:30:33.160
You think about it. You've got someone who's 
an entrepreneur Yes, he's inherited his

0:30:33.160,0:30:37.040
dad's business, but he's done pretty well You 
know, you could have blown that whole fortune

0:30:37.040,0:30:41.720
and being you know, so he must have had Some 
brain cells there to, to continue with that.

0:30:41.720,0:30:46.840
And he's become really famous and done all these 
things. He understands business and negotiation,

0:30:46.840,0:30:50.120
which makes him good. Also what he's done 
with NATO and things like that. You know,

0:30:50.120,0:30:52.200
there's, there's certain 
things, you know, where he's,

0:30:52.200,0:30:55.560
Forcing other countries to pay their 
dues. There's nothing wrong with that.

0:30:55.560,0:31:00.840
That's the sort of thing that any, you would 
do it as a business. And I would do it as a

0:31:00.840,0:31:10.000
business. Basic things that I suppose it needed an 
entrepreneur, someone with a business head to go,

0:31:10.000,0:31:15.600
well, that is a rubbish deal. Let's do 
this. So there were, It makes sense.

0:31:15.600,0:31:20.320
So I, I believe you are correct 
in what Trump did for the economy.

0:31:20.320,0:31:25.200
I also think that you're right as a business 
person, you do want someone ruthless, you do want

0:31:25.200,0:31:29.520
someone that's going to be able to protect your 
interest. I think that for me, the problem comes

0:31:29.520,0:31:39.320
in when you. Um, when you do it at the expense of 
all Americans and some of our allies. And I think,

0:31:39.320,0:31:44.960
you know, it's almost, you know, my big thing is 
make it more about the country, not about you.

0:31:44.960,0:31:48.000
Most people, most sensible people 
are actually in the middle.

0:31:48.000,0:31:55.200
I believe in balance. Um, probably 
most military people do. Um,

0:31:55.200,0:31:57.960
but at the same time, I believe 
wisdom demands that I'm not going to

0:31:57.960,0:32:02.280
blindly follow anyone if I think it's not in 
the best interest of the country. You know,

0:32:02.280,0:32:06.680
and I'm not trying to be naive or altruistic, but 
you know, you want to be on the right side of it.

0:32:06.680,0:32:10.360
And when it comes to, you know, trunch 
racial comments or sexist comments,

0:32:10.360,0:32:13.280
if you ask me what I heard and 
what I saw, I'm going to tell you

0:32:13.280,0:32:17.440
what's next for gene folks.

0:32:17.440,0:32:20.920
So like you, I've had a podcast, 
I've been running for, uh,

0:32:20.920,0:32:25.040
for about four years and I'd be honored 
to have you a guest on that program.

0:32:25.040,0:32:27.120
Just for our, for our viewers, what's the podcast?

0:32:27.120,0:32:27.840
Where can I find it?

0:32:30.480,0:32:37.680
It's on YouTube and it's also on Apple, Spotify, 
iHeartRadio, you know, all the, all the normal

0:32:37.680,0:32:43.260
channels. And then also we're kicking off a 
clothing line. It's called Ocean. Um, there

0:32:43.260,0:32:48.000
is an entrepreneur spirit in me that's always 
doing that. And then my, uh, consulting firm,

0:32:48.000,0:32:53.000
still capital raising for people and trying to 
help small businesses, you know, take on Goliath.

0:32:53.000,0:32:58.040
I love the name Ocean. I love that. All right,

0:32:58.040,0:33:04.200
Gene, thank you so much, and 
I'll see you on your podcast.

0:33:04.200,0:33:07.120
Okay. Definitely. You will. 
Thank you guys so much. Thank

0:33:07.120,0:33:13.680
you.